Your Thoughts

Discussion in 'Industry News, Training & Organizations' started by Tandy Reeves, Jan 26, 2008.

  1. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    The latestest copy of FCI arrived and it has some good reading. I was reading the FCI Editiorial by John Moore, and this statement caught my eye: "It seems that there is no end to questions that arise in regard to the causes of installation failure, but the majority of them share a root cause: mistakes made by the installer, either before the instalation, in assessing the readiness of the subfloor to have the flooring installed; or during the installation, when any number of seemingly innocent mistakes can lead to failure at a later time."

    What do you think of that statement? He goes on and makes some very good statements and I think he has stepped right into the middle of our reason for having the workshop in May. Do you consider his statement a bridge or a wall?

    There is also some very good reading in the letter to the editor by Kenny Downey in reference to what Michael Hetts wrote. Do you think these three men will attend the workshop, not as headliners, but as participants just like everyone else.
     
  2. Chris Mha

    Chris Mha Charter Member Senior Member

    I'll wait to comment until I get my copy and read it.
     
  3. cproader

    cproader All over T's last nerve Senior Member

    I would be the first one to say that most if not all installation problems are avoidable and certainly rest in the hands of the installers. And I wouldn't consider any to be innocent, but rather ignorant. If I were a hack, it would be a wall. :)
     
  4. Jerry Thomas

    Jerry Thomas Charter Member Senior Member

    I have not got my copy yet, but from what you posted.... he's pretty much right.
     
  5. Al Gladden

    Al Gladden stretcherman Charter Member

    i have trained with ken downy personally, and while i have not read the article yet,i know he is a very experienced installer,rep for beaulieu.
     
  6. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Did you send them an e-mail to invite them?
     
  7. Darol Wester

    Darol Wester Charter Member Senior Member

    I would have to agree too. I don't know just how far they want to push the "majority" mark but it makes good sense. As long as they also recognize and mention the fact that there IS other parts to the equation such as problems with materials etc, that do play their part as well, which we've all seen more than our share of.

    What I'd like to see someday is an article about how often we the installers have to bite the bullet with days off due to the poor quality/workmanship with materials and or inspections at the mills. There never seems to be a shortage of articles with arrows pointing at the installer.

    I haven't received my copy yet either. Should be an interesting read.
     
  8. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    I guess I was a little premature in asking the question when several of you have not gotten your copy yet. The reason I quoted a part of what was said was to see how quick it grabbed your attention. The main part of the statement that caught my eye was: "mistakes made by the installer, either before the installation, in assessing the readiness of the subfloor to have the flooring installed; or during the installation."

    What can you do before the installation? How often do you go to the jobsite and assess the readiness of the subfloor, or is the flooring loaded on the truck and you are given the work order to install the carpet?

    Is the only area out of the three mentioned that the installer has control over is the "during the installation"?
     
  9. Nick Arrera

    Nick Arrera Traitor

    Nope , has control over all three .. I brought my share of product back to the shop when i worked for stores because i wouldn't install over a bad sub floor .. Only problem was the only one loosing money was me ..
     
  10. Roland Thompson

    Roland Thompson Charter Member Senior Member

    I also have had many of talks with Ken, Michael and John and this are three fine men that want nothing but the best for the installers and the industry. I will need to get and read before I can give my views.

    Roland
     
  11. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    I have no doubt these are fine men, and their articles indicate they are very interested in the installer. My reason for posting the question was NOT to degrade any of them, but rather explore a statement made to see if all agree with it and see if blame was being properly placed on the installer.
     
  12. Jerry Thomas

    Jerry Thomas Charter Member Senior Member

    I should better define my previous post. I am totally independent and therefore I bear total responsibility on my jobs in that aspect. That means I need to know the product, how it goes down and what precautions I need to take.

    If i was employed by a retailer I feel they they should bear as much, if not more, responsibility as I do. From what i read alot of retailers don't know and have a don't care attitude.... let the mill reps handle any problems or complaints. Sorta the nature of the beast to some retailers. That is from what iI have read throughout the years.

    Not all retailers are like this, take Danny for example.
     
  13. Danny Ferguson

    Danny Ferguson Abbey Carpet & Floor Charter Member

    Thank you for the compliment Jerry. Sounds like a good topic. I have yet to receive my FCI mag.
     
  14. selvalee

    selvalee No one special Senior Member

    there is a "core group" from here attending,
    if promotion is good, the "celebrities" will be calling or in line to attend....

    however, you are asking people with egos, which drives us all to be the best we can be, to take a back seat to others,,,, maybe they will, maybe they will not....

    remember, many events or "positions" are taken driven by egos,,, and truth and facts are often sacrificed to feed egos,,

    I don't know the persons you are talking about, but, their writing do not indicate this approach,,,,,,, but, others will not attend because you are not asking them to "preen" for the group,,,,

    again, another weekend without an email promotion,,,,

    you guys need to get started!

    People need to plan what events they will go to during the year,,, for example, for me, I have to make a choice between NOFMA or the NWFA convention to attend this.... and NOFMA is not even in consideration to eliminate,,, so, people have to plan, and look at the money,,, and time away from work,,,,,,,

    for inspectors, time away is time lost is money lost,,,, so, there you go.
    slt
     
  15. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain Owner/Founder Administrator

    We are ALL doing the best that we can within the time constraints of the situation. This is our FIRST, but hopefully not our last. Most of us understand fully that 6 months would have been ideal lead time, but we just don't have it. If it means we have only 30 participants this year, instead of 130, then I'm afraid that will have to be good enough this time.

    And no one is asking anyone to take a back seat. We want everyone to sit TOGETHER on this. We have presenters and moderators for this one and we hope that others will step forward for future workshops. But we can't change our dance card now. We would all appreciate some support, including their presence at this event. We all go as equals though. We won't give anyone special treatment - that's one of those walls we won't build.

    T
    PS: If you (or anyone) would like an advertisement for your website, just let me know and I'll get you one. I can make it any size or configuration you like. That would certainly help in our promotional efforts. You can also just copy the one you see in my signature and put it on your site with a link to the flier, the agenda or the registration files.
     
  16. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Speaking of egos, well all must remember that installlers, inspectors, dealers, and manufacturers have great egos, and when we attend the workshop the egos must be left at the door.

    I believe that these three men could attend as a part of the group. Also, I have been asked if other schools would be invited. Any of the other schools are most welcome to attend; Will Stoner, Nancy Tallant, and IICRC. Any of you that have lines of communication with them please send an invitation. They will have to pay and attend as any one else does.

    We all must relax, discuss the various problems and then work together to build the bridge to allow each of us to cross over and solve the problems
     
  17. Daniel Wachtel

    Daniel Wachtel Charter Member

    I see a lot of past articles from FCI as walls. Walls being built by associations, Former installers, carpet cleaners, ect... To take seriously their barrage of if you are not a member of our group you are worth less than we. Or "advocates" who pound their chest and say "you need to charge more money". Not realizing that those who live in a competitive market area would not only lose their existing contracts but be laughed a when showing their "new and improved" pricing structure to potential retail contractors. Walls are built with each publication. I will admit that there is the occasional olive branch held out by an occasional author.

    Just an opinion.
     
  18. rusty baker

    rusty baker Well-Known Member

    I agree 100 percent.
     
  19. selvalee

    selvalee No one special Senior Member

    that is an interesting and thoughtful statement,
    I am the first to admit I have an ego, sometimes it gets me in trouble, sometimes, it saves my rear,,,,

    but, yes, I think you are right on, many preach unrealistic "programs"...

    this past weekend I talked to a good man who got into wood inspections thinking he could charge 1700 plus expenses,,,, when he got into inspections he was told he could charge that much,,,,
    now, he has a very low opinion of about 95% of inspectors, and thinks it is all dishonest and crooked,,,, and now, he is thinking his investment was a bad deal..... a wall has been built, I am doing my best to convince him otherwise, but, now, bad information has cost a man a lot of money and time,,,,then, he came into contact with low bid drive by inspectors,,,,so, you can see why he is upset....
     
  20. Daniel Wachtel

    Daniel Wachtel Charter Member

    I guess I get a little POd when I read tips from former installers that can cost Joe Installer his livelihood.
     
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