You think MILL should replace with product???

Discussion in 'Vinyl Flooring Q&A' started by Isabella Flooring, May 12, 2015.

  1. Isabella Flooring

    Isabella Flooring Pro Member

    Mr. Incognito

    There are other products out there in the same price range, I will put in a sheet vinyl that KNOWINGLY from experience that can handle the temp. swings...

    Also, We are not admitting any fault here, Knowingly we did the best and informed the consumer of what we knew about this product, IF we knew about such a sensitive floor, We wouldn't of sold it or mostly the PRODUCT wouldn't be on our showroom floor.....

    The product rack by now is under probally 1.5 million pounds of waste in the landfill.....
  2. Isabella Flooring

    Isabella Flooring Pro Member

    We looked for a Inspector,
    They where to busy or didn't want to inspect, The Inspector that inspected was contacted by us with no response, Until mill contacted him....

    My therory is,
    Most inspectors on this side of the world there bread and butter is...The Manufacture....
  3. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Of course it is............but that does not mean that they cannot be honest and truthful. Most mfg. just want to know what is going on with the product. I commented earlier that the inspector needs to have factual evidence that it is NOT the mfg's fault. The mill also REQUIRES factual evidence that it is "their" problem as well.

    My recommendation to any retailer is to find a good inspector in your area. Sit down with him and let him know that all you want is an honest report backed up with FACT, not opinion or conjecture. Also let him know that you will pay his fee no matter where he places the blame. To be truthful it is often someone other than the mill. It could be the consumer (abusing the floor, not maintaining properly) just as well as it could be the installer.

    Inspectors are not the bad guy, we are for the most part just honest hard working guys trying to make a living! To those who say that they do not agree with my reports.........."why are YOU not inspecting if your knowledge is so much greater than mine?":eek:
  4. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    Now it makes sense. You want PRODUCT replaced--------with an alternative material of equal value.

    10 4
  5. Bud Cline

    Bud Cline Tile Expert Charter Member Senior Member Published


    I've been following along on this thread and can see where this is a helluva predicament to be in.

    In recent years I have watched the floor covering industry morph itself from what used to be a reliable, dependable and gratifying trade to be in, into what seems to be becoming riskier by the year. One would think as time goes by products would improve, it only seems natural. I am however not sure this is the case.

    Manufactures seem to be consumed by one-upmanship at every turn. I'm not sure how many of today's products have really been tested or trialed for suitability of application. I think it has become a "rush to the marketplace" damn the outcome.

    Truth in advertising seems to have been sacrificed to be replaced with "make-it-cheaper and get it sold".

    Warranties don't seem to hold up and all involved seem to be pointing the finger at someone else and looking to lay-blame anywhere they can. It's kinda' scary actually.

    A lot of manufacturer's have stopped including installation information with each package of product to save printing costs. One is now expected to "go to a website" and find the information on their own, then if a printed version is required the reader prints the information themselves. I guess that makes fair business sense but a lot of consumers and installers aren't going to take the time to do so.

    As a seller of these goods I would think it would be the responsibility of the that seller to see to it that they have correct and up to date information about the products they are selling/installing. But, who in the hell would think the rules would change on the same product from one order to the next? I personally think the thing to do (especially if one is selling $300K of their product) is to insist that the manufacturer sends out their most recent product and installation information with each and every order. This can be done by email and/or PDF but insist they do so with each and every order. A printed message included in the order would be the thing for the manufacturer to do. It seems manufacturer's want the information to be vague so that they can make up the rules as they go.

    There was a time when all of the mainstream players were reputable but I'm not so sure that's the case these days as they actually buy product from overseas and simply put their name on it when it arrives at our shores. Lumber Liquidators is a good example of this practice and look what has happened to them. They were big-name, they were main-stream, they were reputable, or so everyone thought until recently.

    I personally believe that some products come with big fat warranties simply to fool a consumer knowing full-well any and all claims will be denied if and when they do arise.

    It's a shame but apparently we-all have to keep our guard up all the time these days.
  6. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    I'm flabbergasted lately on how much I agree with Bud!

    We installed Naffco plank, 6 months later there were gaps everywhere. I called manufacturer, they said plank should be exactly 6 x 36", well it was about a sixty fourth smaller, times the piece next to it makes a thirty second.

    Customer didn't complain but we put the other 6 or 8 hundred foot in the second half of house. So the size was the same, product shrank and one side of house joints are tight after shrinking, other half gaps. It's only about a year1/2 into the 15 or so year warranty. Customer hasn't complained. Something about adhesive is supposed to prevent shrinking and the chemists are changing formulas, transitional pressure sensitive I don't know and there's no one promulgating info on the proprietary ingredients leaving us to guess. Not that scientists are good communicators but they probably are not allowed to speak about any companies R&D or products in the past. Sad Face!
  7. Bud Cline

    Bud Cline Tile Expert Charter Member Senior Member Published

    OH GAWD !!! Don't do that, that could be construed as a mental disability. I've already been trying to talk to Dr. Phil but he won't take my calls.
  8. Floored by Newman

    Floored by Newman Floored by Newman

    This is why I prefer just carpet ;) I also live in a mobile home. Temp varies from one end of home to another. Floor is 20 degrees cooler than therm states. Skirt and belly exists but still...:eek: What manufacture could this be :( Truth is they dont know as it is still a test and we are the ...
  9. j248

    j248 Pro Member

    I can only imagine the frustration this has/is causing, to both you as the dealer and also to the customer. Warranties are often worded in a tricky way, and This can cause interpretations of something that needs to be specifically followed. Click locking vinyl, being a relatively new product(4 or so years) seems to have caused some confusion with installs sometimes, often due to using laminate like methods.
    I am not an installer, nor an inspector,I am more of an LVT nerd, who tries to make sure iknow of any possible issues or reasons why installs matter the company that distributes or makes the product. I often learn the hard way, by screwing up on things like acclimation. I have put together large rooms with this system, and wanted to break something because it was very difficult to was too cold and it became so difficult Finnish,,,it just was awful.

    My issue was the temperature, and when I had to redo the whole thing, I was pretty angry at everything near me...but that was a blatant error on my part, I knew that quickly. As a result I looked at every manufacturer ranges, and everything else in order to prepare toke sure this would never happen again, and to make sure the product was stable. I not saying that this was the fault of installation at all, I don't know nor would I ever claim to without seeing the floor in person. I do know that the temp changes effect pvc, and being a floating system, there is no glue to hold it at all. Also these expansions and contractions can happen in spots nowhere need where the separations are presenting themselves.

    Sorry for the long long post, I would have probably not made it through reading the whole thing if I were just reading it.

    Basically, this is vinyl, and this is always a possibility...laminate can shrink and expand with temp changes also, it doesn't make the product faulty, it may be a possibility, but not a certainty at all. I could go on and on, but I have done so for way too long already. Maybe I can clarify my post and make it less of a book, and more cliff's notes like.
  10. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    Another issue is that the installation seems more user friendly, but makes floor prep more difficult in order for product to perform. It has shifted the requirements from where some finish floors could absorb some out of spec substrates, but now the substrate has to fully support the floor without movement, otherwise the click lock is the weakest link.
  11. j248

    j248 Pro Member

    Yes, there are many advantages to floating floors, the installation is fairly easy, also easy to mess up. I wish there were a cure all vinyl product, that could be installed over any surface with no prep, and handle all temperature fluctuations from sunburned to frostbite...All while it installs itself and maybe tucks me in after a bedtime story of my choice. But while the alchemists and wizards develop that product, I will always feel that good floor prep, research, and all other time tested tools, will work best.
  12. I figure that I would chime in here as this seems to be a hot topic. Lots of good points.

    If the product is dimensionally unstable as the inspector sites that can be proven very easily by getting the product outside of the parameters, both hot and cold and measuring the difference in the size of the product at a baseline temperature within the recommended range. So, why didn't he do that?

    IMHO here's why, these LVT products are typically constructed of several different layers of dissimilar material (a heterogeneous floor). This makes them pretty dimensionally stable - like plywood. That's not to say they don't change at all but it's minimal compared to a laminate product. Many products incorporate recycled PVC vs. products that are all virgin PVC. This can have a significant impact on both the density and dimensional stability of the product. Products with higher recycled contents will typicall have a higher static load limit as the PVC becomes harder and less flexible after being recycled.

    My point being it is more likely the structure that is changing - not the product. The envelope of the building will expand and contract. Therefore it is extremely important to think of these floating systems like laminate. You CANNOT bind them, pinch them, or restrict them in any way.

    His statement that "the floor expands and contracts too much, it could cause the floor to lip, gap or put too much pressure on the locking system and allow it to fail as it did in this case." -- isn't quite correct. It should read,"... when the building or structure expands and contracts." If you doubt what I'm saying here, speak with a structural engineer. It's been demonstrated in the field and in a lab that certain mixes of concrete can expand and contract up to 1" in 20 feet in certain conditions. Wood sub-floors will even move more.

    Secondly, you stated initially that you were without representation for 13 months from this particular mill and then you'd clarified that you had several new reps. Why would you continue to support a manufacturer or distributor who has such a poor service record? If I were in your situation I would have to feel that if I had such poor representation I would assume up front I was going to get no support in a claim situation either. In other words I rolled the dice and lost but I knew going in that possibility existed.

    I hope that this gets resolved the way you want it to but I hope you take it as an opportunity to really look at who you're supporting and whether you are getting the support you deserve back. If the answer is no, then don't hesitate to switch the business to somebody else. As a sales manager, if one of my reps suddenly lost $300,000 worth of business I'd be on their behind and would become involved with the account myself if need be.

    Good luck with your problem and again I hope the mill will at least help you with a material replacement even if it's a courtesy or good faith gesture.:yesss:
  13. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    I do not understand this
    If it was true why don't the walls shift as the walls are attached to the floor with either bolts or nails in the case of wood subfloors
    My house is 30 odd years old and nothing has fallen over due to movement
  14. Isabella Flooring

    Isabella Flooring Pro Member

    To answer some of your therory
    (1) modular Home 2010
    (2) it's a floating floor
    With the above said your structure with expansion and contraction doesn't make sense, Sorry just my opinion

    With your statement in what a store does with a manufacture in numbers, In my opinon, #'s shouldn't matter in ways, One store could have a population of 3000 vs another store that services 9000 in population, As long as the Store is running a so called program with a manufacture, They both should be treated equal....Then one has to see who can service the store, Some manufacturers won't deliver to some areas in that case freight becomes an issue....

    I will predict at the 11th hour the Manufacturer will supply the material for replacement and we have the expense of labor, Which we offerd at first, It was manufacture that wanted to have home Inspected....

    I honestly really don't think there is enough knowledge on this product, there really no ASTM to back it, if some quotes a ASTM its a VCT which is way different than a LVT...
  15. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    I will agree wholeheartedly about not enough knowledge. This is something I am trying to learn as much as I can about, thus my interest in this thread.

    I will also disagree with you on the ASTM comment. The ASTM Standard is .......
    Designation: F1700 – 04
    Standard Specification for Solid Vinyl Floor Tile1
    This standard is issued under the fixed designation F1700

    The test for dimensional stability is ........
    F2199 Test Method for Determining Dimensional Stability
    of Resilient Floor Tile after Exposure to Heat

    However it is used for LVP which in my opinion is not the same as LVT. I cannot give you the complete standard as it is copyrighted information, but suffice it to say it quotes a standard of .016 allowable variation per foot, resulting in up to 1/8" allowable shrinkage on a 4' LVP. No customer in their right mind would accept that. I believe there needs to be some adjustment on this Standard.

    There are additional Standards for VCT as well.

    A question though.....Why would you replace with the same thing? Doing it over will likely result in the same failure. What is the root cause of the failure and how can that be corrected before moving forward?
  16. Isabella Flooring

    Isabella Flooring Pro Member

    Will replace with a sheet vinyl or a laminate in the same price range...

    I deal with common sense....

    I have seen this product fail all over, mainly on wood substrates,

    We had a 2 story home elevation of 6000 feet, The lvt on the first floor which is concrete no problem, upstairs same house Gaps all over, Just like in the pics sent you...

    Look at the report again, Notice where inspector notes that house has heating and air...then he states home has no Climate control,

    Now I have to ask, how does one operate a heating and air conditioning
    Without a thermostat.....

    As far as ROOT cause, temperature Swing, if floor stays at 85 for days, and I swing it down to 65 rapidly, I beleive starts the gaping, I also feel 85 my be to warm, I also have thoughts about how it is shipped, Installation instructions say not to stack no more than 10 high, Well, coming from China in them containers of 150 degrees 4 pallets high could distort product..I have also notice, That the manufacture warehouse has learned to have a full sheet of plywood or some sort on the pallet it is being sent on if the don't the last 2 rows will have the pallet lines in the material

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