You think MILL should replace with product???

Discussion in 'Vinyl Flooring Q&A' started by Isabella Flooring, May 12, 2015.

  1. Isabella Flooring

    Isabella Flooring Pro Member

    Analysis and Conclusion:
    • This home is situated in an area that can get extreme temperature fluctuations from day into evening.
    • Extreme temperature changes may result in unacceptable thermal expansion or contraction.
    • The floor is experiencing Thermal dimensional change: If the floor is not kept in a climate controlled environment the plank will expand with heat then return to the size it was manufactured as it cools down. If the floor expands and contracts too much, it could cause the floor to lip, gap or put too much pressure on the locking system and allow it to fail as it did in this case.
    • The dealer and the consumers were unaware of the temperature guidelines that are now in place.
    • There was no mention of the floor needing to be kept between certain degrees in a climate controlled environment in the instructions and maintenance sheet dated Revision date 12/12/11 that was given to me by the dealer that he kept in the customers folder.
    • The sheet only states that for acclimation, ideal conditions are at least 65 degrees and no higher than 85 degrees for 48 hours prior to installation.
    • New revisions came out July 9, 2013 stating : Acclimate the flooring and the rooms to be installed in at a constant temperature between 65° and 85°F (18.33° and 29.44°C) for 48 hours before, during and maintained after installation.
    • This floor was installed in May 2014, 10 months after the revisions were made, but the dealer's cartons still had the old instruction sheets in them which are what the dealer, consumers and installers must follow.
    *** If new revisions for a product are to be followed, it is vital that they be sent to the dealers so they know changes have been made and they can inform the customer of the care that needs to be taken on their end so their floor does not fail.

    Report Date: 04-18-2015 Inspected by:
     
  2. Hanover Fist

    Hanover Fist Pro Member

    Tough call. Let's look at this through an evidentiary lens:

    Does the dealer have proof that they did not receive this update prior to date of install?

    Does the mill have proof that the dealer was sent this update prior to the date of install?

    Is it the mill's responsibility to track down every end user, installer, and holder of OEM stock, and get the info into their hands?

    I'm guessing that the answer to the above questions is 'no', and in turn the same answer probably applies to your OP question.

    My guess is the onus here is on the dealer - who very likely DID receive the update, and then promptly hucked it into the circular file cabinet, failing to disseminate it to their installers and clients, and failed to make copies and place them in their existing stock.
    It's my experience that OEM manufacturers fly new install updates out the door as soon as they get them from their technical people.
    The fault is usually further down the chain.
     
  3. Isabella Flooring

    Isabella Flooring Pro Member


    To answer your question
    For one I am the Dealer, also The installer....As for repusentation from the mill, None for approx 13 months..The Rep. Before product was installed said nothing about temps. But did say watch for direct sunlight.....

    As for dealer and installer point, Material should have been STAMPED with see new updates.

    Also keep in mind that in body of inspection report, Th e homeowner stated lowest his house gets is 58 and maybe in 80 for a high....

    Also when report was sent to us, The new revisions state 55 to 85...
     
  4. Hanover Fist

    Hanover Fist Pro Member

    Hmmm.
    While the thermostat says 58 to 80, whatcha wanna guess an IR therm says when pointed at the floor in sunlight?
    I'm willing to bet it's outside of that range.

    And if you, as the dealer, can show that you received zero info from the mill in the interim between receipt of stock and point of sale/install, you may have a case.
    Otherwise, if the mill can show a revision publication date, and has you on their mailing list, you're probably SOL.

    I deal with this kind of stuff all day, every day, with HVAC equipment.
    Also happen to know that ambient thermostat readings only catch the temps AT the t-stat. This is usually an aggregate temp between the hottest and coldest parts of the home.

    ...also willing to bet the documentation says to keep the PRODUCT at those temps, not the HOME.
     
  5. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    Um, not much to add except General Motors knew about faulty ignition switches for 10 years prior to a recall. I heard on news today that 100 people died from this or something to that effect. So if you think they "care" not going to happen.

    What leverage can you lever? What are your sales for that particular manufacturer. And last but not least, I see vinyl plank shrinking a Lot.

    Weirdly, we are delivering plank,vct, etc like it was hardwood the past couple weeks, well my brother has, I haven't brought up "trip charge" yet. Too much other stupid bs.

    Oh and I don't believe the "expansion" portion, just the shrinking portion, with temp control, minimal sunlight, the stuff is "dimensionally unstable"
     
  6. kwfloors

    kwfloors Fuzz on the brain Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    It must be about vinyl planks or tiles being in this category.
     
  7. Isabella Flooring

    Isabella Flooring Pro Member


    Let's just say I do aprox. 300k with this mill combination of hard and soft surface.....

    I also will say, This Leading Mill prior to this product being showcased on showroom floor knows we won't showcase something that is such climate sensitive.. Shall I say STRANDED BAMBO that was tested in a ZOO in Alabama...
     
  8. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member


    It is about products that fail and a company that won't own up to it, which can certainly afford it. The sales of this company speaks for itself. I believe companies are knowingly producing this product and its characteristics.

    It is an analogy, are those ok? Instructions are changing continuously as companies realize how their products are failing.
     
  9. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    First off Isabella, you are rambling all over the place!:D

    Second, what is the specific product?

    OK, let's cut to the chase.....
    1. You sold and installed this product
    2. It failed because you did not know/follow the guidelines
    3. You want to blame the mill for not keeping you abreast of any changes to installation guidelines.
    (How am I doing so far?)
     
  10. mcurrin

    mcurrin Charter Member Published

    I would argue that 58 to 80 degrees is not extreme, it's only 22 degrees. Both temps are well within comfort levels for humans. Vinyl will perform under these temp variations or should. In the quote above you state "The new revisions state 55 to 85", a 30 degree swing. Your leverage is in logic and reality, not the playground rules "because I say so".

    Mike

    PS: one more question, in the analysis portion a " locking mechanism" edge is mentioned. Is this a floating floor? Is there proper expansion around the edges?
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2015
  11. j248

    j248 I Support TFP

    it is floating. Nothing to bond to like the substrate via glue...That is how I interpreted it at least. IMO the floating LVT products are fairly standard in terms of the reaction to temp changes no matter which manufacturer it is.

    Where in the place is this product installed?
     
  12. Isabella Flooring

    Isabella Flooring Pro Member


    Once again Mr. Elmer

    You are way off,

    It failed because of UNSTABLE product, and if you would read the Certified (FCITS) Inspectors report, (Analysis and Conclusion) In the first post....

    Youll come to see, find, and read.....The floor was Installed by the directions that came out of the box, Product should be Installed and maintained by them directions OR Cartons should be stamped...SEE NEW UPDATES....

    You'll also come to find, There is a BIG difference in the WORDS ambient and surface temps. Research it, and you'll come to find out NO INSTRUCTIONS on any LVT LVP states that the SURFACE must stay between a certain temp.

    Let me also state to you, Inspector found no problems with Installation, And did note It was a better installation he has seen, And at the time, Mr. Elmer, We as a Store and Installation company had NO clue about 3 different sets of Installation procedures...

    Which ONE is it, 55 to 85
    65 to 85 or
    Instructions that come out of the Box......

    I will also STATE, We are trying to help Consumer, Inspection report stated no Installation Issues, But just Product and some temp. ranges, We as a company will most likely replace floor, Because we are a Customer Service driven store, And it wont be a LVT or LVP....

    I will also say, I have seen FAILURES(LVT LVPs) in front and under refrigerators
    Now explain to me how you tell the END USER that they need to cool the air from their refrigerator motor....
     
  13. Isabella Flooring

    Isabella Flooring Pro Member

    Nope no DIRECT sun light, Home is a 2010 manufacture home, Both side are covered, (1) with awning the other side is a carport with awning. Both ends of home has bedrooms, The floor was Installed In dinning room kitchen and utility room....
     
  14. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    What I find hard to believe is that for a dealer doing 300K a year, there is no representation!

    Yes I can read!!

    Was that the total inspection report?
     
  15. Isabella Flooring

    Isabella Flooring Pro Member

    Yes Mr. Elmer, We have had 8 hardsurface reps in the past 7 years, Just got a NEW rep. This month, The weird part was when new rep came in he told us that there was 26 new hard surface reps in his 3 week training course..This is a UNILIN product at that....

    send me a email and ill forward you the report....
     
  16. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    pm sent.

    Would really like to see the report.
     
  17. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    After reading the inspection report I find no substantiating evidence to support a turndown. All guidelines were followed, the inspector said the installers did a good job.

    His only statement is ..........................."The floor is experiencing Thermal dimensional change: If the floor is not kept in a climate controlled environment the plank will expand with heat then return to the size it was manufactured as it cools down. If the floor expands and contracts too much, it could cause the floor to lip, gap or put too much pressure on the locking system and allow it to fail as it did in this case."

    There are no measurements to back that up. Nothing NADA!! My advice hire your own inspector who really knows something.
     
  18. Isabella Flooring

    Isabella Flooring Pro Member

    Please explain
    Support a turndown....
     
  19. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    A conscientious inspector will have something factual to support a turndown.
    Example ....if the Rh is to be between 35-55%, he will document (with a Pic) if he finds 22% Rh. If a seam was not sealed he will have a picture or evidence of a U/V light NOT fluorescing. In other words, something to back you up, other than a WAG!!

    In this case I see no evidence to back up the turndown!
     
  20. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    Maybe this is a dumb question but if you know the material is unstable why would you want the Mill to replace it. Won't the same thing just happen again?
     
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