woven's training

Discussion in 'Industry News, Training & Organizations' started by Barry Carlton, May 20, 2008.

  1. Barry Carlton

    Barry Carlton I Support TFP Senior Member Published

    My main field has always been resilient.(vinyl, lino, etc) I have had a measure of decent carpet instruction. I am very interested in learning the upper end woven's techniques. I have good basics in general cpt.

    Are there schools....is there training and certfication for people like me??

  2. stullis

    stullis Charter Member Senior Member

    I know Frank Cartwright attended a woven training course out East so I know they exist but that is about all I know about it.
  3. David Hunt

    David Hunt Charter Member Senior Member Published

    Barry, what exactly is it that you would like to learn or see that you believe you don't already know?


  4. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain TFP Owner/Founder Administrator

    Good question, Dobby. Do you still do any woven classes? If not, any thoughts about reviving them in the future?

  5. Barry Carlton

    Barry Carlton I Support TFP Senior Member Published

    After reading all the posts on this site and others (primarily this one) I realize I don't know much regarding higher end cpts. I would like to learn sewing, mitering, etc. of cpts. As I have stated in the past I have done a hand full of Ax. but nothing with seams and nothing fancy an/of challenging.

    I would like to work myself closer to the level of the custom carpet mechanics in this site.

  6. Harry Myers

    Harry Myers Charter Member

    Your more complimented carpet will be a wilton. Axminster is cake. Practice hand sewing on tufted material if you don't have access to woven. Let me let Dave conclude on this. Im am not to familiar with schools.:)
  7. Hoss

    Hoss Charter Member

    1. Vermont Custom Rug Company - David Hunt - Where the air is clean, Vermont
    2. World Of Wiltons - Phil Pearlman in Broomall, Pennsylvania

    It's worth spending one week with both of them. Well worth it.
  8. Peter Kodner

    Peter Kodner Inspector Floors Charter Member Senior Member

    Sadly, I do not believe Mr. Hunt is offering classes at this time. Maybe we can all convince him to change that...

    I'll send a deposit tomorrow if he will...
  9. Barry Carlton

    Barry Carlton I Support TFP Senior Member Published

    One would think that with David's passion for promoting and keeping industry standards high in order to keep the profits up, that he would help the sincere mechanics (such as here) learn the finer points of the high end custom carpet.;);):D

    I too would send a deposit depending on the dates.

    And I'm sure that material costs would a large consideration for David. After all they don't give that high end stuff away.

  10. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    He may not be giving classes, but if you call him he will gladly lead you around the perils of whatever job you have. Like Roland he can be a bit verbose, but it is done with the best of intentions and to try and assist you.

    It really is a pleasure to talk to him. His knowledge just seems to spill over the phone.
  11. David Hunt

    David Hunt Charter Member Senior Member Published

    Who said I don't?

    The only thing I did was stop doing formal 'scheduled' training because it was interfering with my real job. I am still very active in working with installers who want to learn and never ask for a penny. In fact, the only thing I have ever asked is that they, in turn, pay it forward by freely showing and teaching others.

    That's why I asked the question concerning what it is you are actually hoping to learn.

  12. stullis

    stullis Charter Member Senior Member

    Not sure but I think Barry is talking about a more formal hands-on installation course and not just some 2 day certification deal.

    Of course this begs the question, how many schools for non-woven carpet laying are there? I've only heard of one at a vo-tech school and I think it may have been only a 2 week course.
    Last edited: May 24, 2008
  13. David Hunt

    David Hunt Charter Member Senior Member Published

    There are no formal woven training schools or classes anywhere that I am aware of.

    Phil Pearlman has a great fabrication class. I believe it's about three grand for a week. The downside is, it does not cover anything about axminsters, velvet, flat-weaves, Kara-Loc's or face-to-face wiltons. Nor does it cover installation. If you want to learn how to hand sew and fabricate wilton area rugs, it's a great class.

    The NFIC, as best as I have been able to determine, is a CFI style certification where you pay them around a thousand dollars for two days of class room work and a half day of certification testing for everything discussed in the classroom. And voila, you are a certified woven installer!

    The focus is on natural fibers like sisal, jute and seagrass and, according to the founder P.J. Arthur, there is not a carpet made that can not be seamed tape. I would strongly disagree with that premise, but, to do so would cost me a thousand bucks +travel and three days time.

    The CFI's Pattern Class is probably about the best formal class out there. But it's focus is on working with patterns and only lightly touches on woven goods.

    The problem with woven training is the classification and spectrum is so diverse. How do you cover and condense everything in one class?

    Here's what I believe. I believe that any installer worth their spit has the technical skill and talent to fabricate and install any piece of woven material. That the real challenge is not the learning of 'new' or 'different' techniques. The real challenge is understanding the basic foundation of weaving and how woven carpets differ structurally from each other and their tufted counterparts.

    Once the installer understands how one woven product differs structurally from another and how these structural characteristics effect the stretch, cut, handle and seaming of the product. They can then effectively apply the techniques they already have to successfully fabricate and/or install the material.

    I know, but what about sewing?

    Sewing is the easiest thing to learn when you are taught by someone who actually knows how to do it, does it on a regular basis and knows that not every technique works for every person. That the key is finding the technique that works best for you! I've regularly taught people who have never sewn, to sew carpet in an hour. We've even taught people how to sew over the phone. Yes, it really is that easy.

    What about patterns?

    Here to, patterns are easier than sewing. It only takes about an hour with someone who actually knows about patterns and understands how to work with them along with a half dozen different pattern materials as examples to equip anyone to plan, cut and place patterns.

    You know, there are some things in life that are difficult to figure out on our own, but the moment we see someone do it, the answer is a clear as can be. That's exactly how it is with woven carpet. And it all begins and ends with a basic understanding of weaving and how woven carpets differ structurally from tufted carpet and each other. Once this is achieved, everything else falls into place

    Again, I believe the whole key to working with woven carpets is about the tools we keep in our mental tool box. It's not about specific skill sets it's about understand, recognizing and appreciating the real differences between products and adjusting the installation plan accordingly.

    That's my two cents on the subject.


    Dobby (aka: David Hunt)
  14. Al Gladden

    Al Gladden stretcherman Charter Member

    nfic is 3 days and it is 500 bucks not 1000. and you do not have to get certified, it can be 3 days training and one of the instructors CFI masterII installer fred chastain, they also have CFI MASTER INSTALLER bobby jarvis, and also MASTERII installer robert varden is also on board...those guys are some of the top installers in the country...
  15. stullis

    stullis Charter Member Senior Member

    Mr. Pearlman's class is the one that I was thinking Frank Cartwright attended. That name rings a bell anyway.

    So it appears that there really aren't any formal training courses, pretty much just OJT, on the job training, for carpet installation?

    Kind of sad really when you think about most of the other trades are represented in the education system.

    Here's the tech school that I was refering to that at one time had a flooring installation program both carpet and vinyl.
    It appears it isn't offered anymore. :(
    Programs of Study / Riverland Community College, Albert Lea, Austin and Owatonna Minnesota
    Last edited: May 24, 2008
  16. Barry Carlton

    Barry Carlton I Support TFP Senior Member Published

    There is much (very much) I do not know!!! What I do know is that I could do Marmoleum long before I had the paper that said that I could. Yet, once that I had that paper, the confidence level of the consumer shot way up (as it should). And as confident as I was/am in what I can do, the fact that some one else (in this case, Forbo) was willing to put to paper that I could do what I knew I could do, heightened my confidence and expectations of myself.
    I have nothing on the horizon that I am not willing or able to do. I would decline to accept a job that I had not the confidence nor ability to complete to the satisfaction of the consumer.
    But to be given that added, extra education that can contribute to the overall confidence of all parties concerned would be warmly and very much valued and appreciated.

  17. David Hunt

    David Hunt Charter Member Senior Member Published

    Thanks for the correction Al, your right, I guess it is $500, if you have 10 people.

    With kindest regards,

  18. Al Gladden

    Al Gladden stretcherman Charter Member

    hunt you are very arrogant, all you have to do is call and pj arthur will work with you..when he said 10 that means if you sign up he will wait until he has a full class, you do not have to bring 10 people with you. pj arthur is one of the only guys i have meet personally who actually wants to help other installers..all of the chapter meetings comes out of his pocket...he is always giving out tools and alot of free training also,..on top of that he is one of the best natural fibers installers in the country.
    al gladden, no longer a member of CFI.
  19. David Hunt

    David Hunt Charter Member Senior Member Published

    Al, I am arrogant. I am also jerk! Ask my wife.

    This February I received a call from Lynn Perkins at cool glide. Lynn was looking for someone to write an article featuring the use of the Sinch Iron on historic installations. Being a passionate advocate of the cool glide system, I shared with Mr. Perkins as how there is a very small classification of wilton constructions that can not be successfully joined by tape. That it is not about the ability of a tape to stick to the back side of fabric, but that it has to do with preserving the structural integrity of the weave structure though out its service life.

    Mr. Perkins said this was the first he had ever heard of this and was contrary to what PJ Arthur had been telling him. According to Mr. Perkins, PJ has developed a technique for sealing the edge that makes tape seaming possible on every type of carpet. Mr. Perkins then asked that I call PJ for more details. Which I did.

    When I did call PJ, I told him I was referred to him from Lynn Perkins at Cool Glide and inquired about the use of the cool glide on wovens. Before I even had the opportunity to give my name, PJ told me the information does exist and was only available in a class and the cost of the class was $1000.

    We continued the conversation for another twenty minutes at least and PJ made his point very clear that absolutely no information was available outside the class.

    Now that's my experience. You may have a different opinion or a different experience and that's fine. I applaud your defense of your friend and mentors. But all we can do is come here and post our honest thoughts, opinions and ideas.

    Clearly others may agree or disagree with us. Nonetheless, that is no need for name calling. This is a discussion forum, a place where ideas and experiences are to be freely shared and exchanged in a professional format. Yet it is amazing how intolerant people become when they read something they disagree with or someone dares to post a reply that disagrees with them.

    Listen folks, I realize that quite often I come across as an arrogant jerk. That is not my intent but it is my writing style. Think of me what you may, if I can provoke you to entertain a thought or idea that you find objectionable. Then, my post was a success. Because I do not post to convince everyone to agree with me . What a boring world that would be. But is you disagree with what I write, call me on it, make your case. Provoke me to see it from your perspective and we will both be the better for it because, truth be told, and I do believe this with all my heart and soul, our strength as a community rests in our differences, not our similarities.

    We do not need to agree with each other. We only need to listen and give the consideration to the thought, idea or recommendation being offered.


    David Hunt

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