Where Are You Going To Start?

Discussion in 'Commercial Flooring Sales & Installation' started by Incognito, Mar 13, 2017.

  1. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    When the Superintendent or anyone else on site asks that this what I hears;

    we're not remotely ready for flooring

    the site is a MF mess

    please move all are construction materials, trash and debris for FREE and try to work around everyone else

    You know where I want to start? I want to start by kicking you in the balls, getting back in my truck and driving home. Monday mornings on a new site in commercial work can be.............ugly!
     

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  2. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Isn't that a Health & Safety issue for you as your layers might trip over that rubbish?
    These people want all these rules so therefore you quote back to the safety officer on the site its dangerous for layers to be there
    Rules are rules :)
     
  3. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    I knew by the title where this was going! I hate that, or when they tell you where they need you to start. Automatically ties your hands. Reminds me the other day when an older lady homeowner turns up the thermostat on me 3 times, from 74 to 77. I like full charge of the entire area, basically everything for efficiency purposes.
     
  4. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    Jon, you have no idea the level of chicanery, outright fraud and hypocrisy existing in this here country's construction health and safety regulatory system. I know this first hand as a fully trained OFFICER of safety and health for our military and government institutions. I formally resigned my position in objection to said SLEAZINESS as I would not sign my name on those papers day after day.

    So this is really about sleazy operators chiseling each other over TIME AND MONEY. I nearly walked off site immediately. The GC (our general contractors who hire the flooring contractors) agreed to pay for our labor to move crap as needed and he did have a couple guys for 20-30 minutes to haul some of that crap away. But we essentially worked today in a hailstorm of FILTH. Lucky my assignment was to only prep for carpet tile that's a few days off in delivery.

    I prepped and laid the small kitchen with vinyl planks to kill the last couple hours of the day as the prep wasn't a full 8 hours for the crew I had.
     
  5. kwfloors

    kwfloors Fuzz on the brain Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    That's what I was going to say, bill them.
     
  6. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    Yeah, that's part of the issue. They got a "change order" to self-level the main office area. I don't show that well in my photos but where you see the horrid mess I poured out about 500 lbs of Ardex K15 and then skimmed off that with another 200 lbs of Webcrete 95.

    The super----------his FIRST job ever just didn't have any idea what the flooring crew requires. I scolded him severely. Later in the day the BIG, BIG BOSSMAN came upstairs from below when he heard the 100 lbs roller going across the LVP. I couldn't help but scold his ass as well.

    IRONY?


    This is the corportate office space of a MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR general contractor. I would just love to shame the by listing their name here. But that would be bad for business. I'm not a total idiot.
     
  7. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    That area was done in one day or two?
     
  8. Mike Sliwinski

    Mike Sliwinski The Doctor Is In I Support TFP Senior Member

    It's been my experience, unfortunately, that some superintendents use the flooring contractors to push other trades along. " O-Boy, the flooring installers are on site, no more slacking off " .........Then again,
    it could be the nature of the Job, when it comes to meeting the almighty completion date.

    Got a love it when the GC has their laborer sweep w/ no compound :eek: That's when those buckets really become a tripping hazard

    Good job Incog, scolding was in order and should be a billable change order ;)

    Mike
     
  9. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    We just did the heavy prep and laid that small kitchen. The carpet tiles will be delivered later this week.
     
  10. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    Oh, I thought you had to get 50 of your mechanics out of the way so you could get some pics. Sorta like the military calls in Air Support. That option is a sweet asset.
     
  11. eaadams

    eaadams Sport Floor Pro

    The worst is when this happens and it is a fixed price / school contract. No way to recover for the mobilization and demobilization.



    Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
     
  12. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    Curious........specifically how does that play out and effect YOUR profit margin when you are not an employer. I really have no idea how that works. I assumed the whole point of avoiding employees and using subs was to stick these inherent and inevitable inefficiencies off onto the subs or the customer--------basically to protect your margins.

    For my part its one of the things I prefer about working union. I can work around the BS or I can walk away. I never lose money. I do lose my mind on occasion but as I age I've got a better grip on that. If I have to go down I'm taking as many MF's down with me as I possibly can. By that I mean when they abuse me and my TRADE I raise up a hailstorm of %^$%#^* that everyone, their Mother, Grandmother and Greatgrandmother is going to shake, rattle and roll as I hump my tools back to the truck.

    I come to WORK, not argue and negotiate.

    They were actually very cool.........remorseful about the mess-------so let's see if they clean it up when I return. We'll absorb the wasted hours if they give us a nice, clean job when we return to install the carpet tile.

    This shop isn't about beating people up for a few hundred or even a fe thousand dollars + or - depending on how the project was specified.
     
  13. eaadams

    eaadams Sport Floor Pro

    When we sub out installation​ everyone is treated the same. If I dispatch someone to a site and it isn't ready and they incur costs, they bill me and it comes out of my personal pocket. That isn't to say some guys understand and don't bill me, we are all on the boat together and we all know costs go up, we get less work. I'm not like most people who just go bid more work. Every win is a big investment in time to sell, every loss is a huge hit and lost investment.

    Also on ANY public work in California the laws on compensation are written BY THE UNION reps, especially​ in flooring because there are only single union/trading programs. (In carpentry and others there are multiple training groups both union/non union) So in summary, the rules on paying people for waisted time are remarkably similar.

    There are assholes who do just as you say. I just had a (resale/wholesale) project not 1/2 mile from the NorCal hall. The low bidder came out of New Mexico, they drove, didn't pay their guys wages for travel, they worked through Christmas and New Year's. That is the sort of BS the laws are designed to avoid. But in that case even the very labor friendly school district didn't enforce the rules because they got a deal to the tune of almost 30%.

    Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
     
  14. Chris 45

    Chris 45 Director of P.R. on some deserted island. I Support TFP

    I'm with Incognito. If the job isn't ready and won't be ready in a reasonable amount of time (as long as it takes me to finish my coffee and pack my tools in), I'm taking pictures for CYA purposes and hitting the road. I'll make my phone call and send an email after I've already left otherwise I've got some project manager begging me to hang out for however long for free. Couple of shops around here have a policy of not paying for down time and it's only a matter of time until the rest follow suit.

    If you will tolerate it once, you will tolerate it all the time. I'm not hourly so when a disorganized site super isn't ready, I feel as if they are personally taking money out of my pocket. Time is money so when my time is wasted, I get pissed. I didn't used to be this way but I am now and it's for the best. My best. These jobs are already bid so tight that it's hard to make a decent buck when everything goes smoothly.
     
  15. kylenelson

    kylenelson You'll find me on the floor I Support TFP Senior Member

    stuff like this seems to be the norm, unfortunately! Moving stuff for other people is nit in the job description! If every jobsite had one or two grunts that pushed a broom and moved trash it would probably save weekes on a job like this.
     
  16. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    The floor stores everything, coordinating and communication are in play, could be done military style with a forward lookout(someone doing a site visit before the troops are brought in.

    We had one contractor that worked with us seamlessly, we do some previews to discuss our approach, they stop what they are doing to coordinate our needs. Another home builder use to leave junk everywhere, painted base in middle of living room, trash everywhere, those were the early days, today, I'd leave and mess their schedule up, maybe next time awareness would be increased.
     
  17. eaadams

    eaadams Sport Floor Pro

    I like this phrase. So true. In our gyms, what is a gym but a big empty warehouse.

    Very frustrating to ever do a flatness check of joints etc... usually so much dirt your straight edge isn't helpful and there is usually a combination of HVAC and DryWall at center court preventing the string/brick method.
     
  18. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    From Incogs first post, can you tell that needed 12? Bags of leveler by looking at it? By walking across?

    Exactly with the straightedge. No floating can be ascertained until the floor is cleaned up, the straightedge is kinda the third step in determination. We looked at a job a retailer wants us to prep. Floor has short humps sporadically all over floor. Forklift traffic was previous use, gluedown plank going down. First is grinding to a point to see some clean concrete in order for adhesive to stick, grind the minor humps, then a straightedge can be placed throughout to determine acceptable minimum variances by all parties. We have the option of doing the entire job but grinding is their request, I said I need to get rid of(shelf life) some self leveler so we'll do probably two large bathrooms where trenching was done.

    I can't price the job due to not knowing how hard the concrete is or what time is needed to get to clean concrete. We will know as we start grinding how the diamonds will wear, and how much time is spent to get to clean slab, and flatten humps.
     
  19. eaadams

    eaadams Sport Floor Pro

    The line between grind and when to just shotblast and level is a hard one.

    Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
     
  20. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    As far as what I know(!) shotblasting does not flatten, it provides a rough surface to bond to for leveler sand epoxy. The retailer discussed shotblasting option and that was my opinion of it. I have a small one that's currently inoperable, a scarifier, which way back you had some work done on joints and left a rough surface, that will work good for quicker reduction in height, but not smoothness, we follow with grinding depending on product to be installed, so choosing the most effective equipment is a priority. I would gladly move on to the next job if I thought shotblasting was the tool of choice. Some levelers do not require a CSP of 3 or more, depending on use/service floor will be subjected to.

    I think the perfect experts to clarify is Texas Shot Blaster and Epoxyman.
     
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