What are the chances of these vinyl planks laying flat?

Discussion in 'Vinyl & Rubber Flooring Sales and Installations' started by Jon Scanlan, Apr 9, 2019.

  1. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Got these vinyl planks to lay today
    What you reckon about laying them? VINYL PLANKS OUT OF BOX.jpg VINYL PLANKS.jpg PLANKS IN SUN ONE HOUR.jpg
  2. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    Had a similar situation with some 18" x 18" LVT in a commercial dining room/kitchen. With a pressure sensitive adhesive they wanted the 1/16" x 1/16" x 1/16" V-notch. I opened those up to a fat U-notch and made sure to get into it ASAP and roll the hell out of it.

    It'll lay down eventually.
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain TFP Owner/Founder Administrator

    Is that substrate you are going over a particleboard subfloor? :ohno:
  4. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Yeah we lay over OUR particleboard all the time
    I am going to put a matrix product over the area I am doing
  5. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain TFP Owner/Founder Administrator

    You've prob'ly told me that a million times over the years. It sucks getting old. :(
  6. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    They are now using Ply in the wet areas in houses these days
    That photo is actually in the carpet area. I am laying the vinyl planks, been told they may flat in a week, in the kitchen/dining room The house would be 30 odd years old with no signs of damage to the particle board
  7. I swear yesterday I did an estimate of tile removal where expansion joint grout was repaired several times, it’s dated so customer showed me a sample piece of floating vinyl plank maybe 8”wide, 6” long. I tried to tell her floating could be done over ceramic but they were doing whole house 1800 ft including bedrooms and the transition height difference would be annoying. So I suggested gluedown vinyl. I set her sample on tile and it rocked sideways. Thought it was the tile not flat but questioned the piece, looked across it and thought it was bowed. Set it on laminate counter and sure enough cupped. It was thick 7mm with thin attached underlayment(floating)I told her that’s unacceptable. Until someone verifies this product will be ok I cannot further even entertain the idea of that particular product. Some customers transition from one flooring type problem to another and I’m sure are disgusted with the whole industry.

    She asked me for company to buy product from, I said I did know a guy in area but he stopped installing flooring and now does epoxy garages, polishing now, contacted him for a referral and he said he has a crew that installs but he still sells product. So we’ll see.
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
  8. I might consider using a hard set acrylic vs. a pressure sensitive. A hard set would give you more tensile (vertical) bond strength to try and overcome the warped product.

    Lew M. would tell you that it won't work, if there's a memory like this in the product it's going to stay in the product. No adhesive is designed to "fix" a defective product. He just wrote an article regarding this very subject in a recent edition of his news letter.

    I've been told that what causes this is an issue in the annealing process. The stresses in the material are created from improper cooling of the product during manufacturing.

    It also can be related to an imbalance in the recycled content of the backing layers. If the material is run through the process too many times (they essentially regrind the defects during manufacturing as well as add in other recycled content the material gets harder and harder each time it's run through the process. There is a point where it essentially has to be scrapped because it becomes unusable. This batch could have content that is causing material stresses between the backing layers and the print film / wearlayer.

    Lastly, I've also seen this issue caused by poor packaging. The cartons are stacked on top of one another on pallets and typically banded or shrink wrapped for shipping. I doubt this one is packaged so that there are two stacks in the box, but some of the narrower planks and tiles are. If the cartons are too "loose" and there's too much room in the box, the vibrations that occur when the material is being shipped on the truck cause the material to interlace like a deck of cards on the sides where the two stacks meet. Combine that with the heat that can occur in the back of a closed truck trailer along with the cartons sitting on top weighing down on the ones below and viola, you've put a nice bend that's been "heated" and "trained into memory" on the sides of the product.

    I honestly think I might entertain returning the product and getting a new batch.

    Good luck with it Jon, whatever you decide and if you can let us know how you made out.
  9. kylenelson

    kylenelson You'll find me on the floor I Support TFP Senior Member

    I had one like that, don’t install it. The company, told me the same advice that people are giving above about what adhesive and how much. Even with heat and a small hand roller it was near impossible to get those edges down. It was a government office where I put it, no one said anything about it, but it didn’t look great. The next job came in the same way and they said don’t install it and that it was a known problem. Gee... thanks?
  10. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    Yeah..........So..........went back today and the mess isn't laying down at all.

    Disregard 100% of my previous response.

    We're going back with a heat gun to try to press the curled edges back down..............not BACK down.........just down.

    In retrospect I wish I had refused to install this product.

    I'll post up some photos as the remediation efforts progress.
  11. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    If the crap is CURLED out of the box no way in hell am I using a "hardset" acrylic adhesive with a short working time unless EVERY SQUARE INCH is immediately covered with sandbags and the site is 100% acclimated to.......whatever.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. So today I find the other issue with gluedown vinyl plank. Shrinking end joints, adhesive telegraphing. To me, completely unacceptable, unless those joints could be filled I’d say I’ll live with that but the trowel lines and indentations I’d really have some issues with the retailer.

    Customer decided to remove tile and carry through the vinyl plank into bathrooms, kitchen,nook and entry. Good choice with the exception of my issues with the visuals.

    One reason we don’t install anymore. For this retailer they didn’t want to pay for adhesive removal couple years ago so we stopped working for them and only do occasional removals. So 400$ you lost probably 30k$ in profit.

    I wrote this awhile ago but didn’t post, found it shaded grey. I looked at photos and recalled telling my brother that 1/4 round looked like gaudy crap, way too obtrusive, shoulda been shoemold or cut tight and small bead of caulk.

    I have some rotors that I was trying to implement into the flooring industry for weight. They don’t stack well though.

    Attached Files:

  13. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Thanks for that CFR
    These planks are a new brand for us
    Importer reckons the curl is caused by the shrink wrap around the planks on the pallet. Only 7 or 8 boxes
    He thinks we came down in the last shower. Okay maybe the two outside boxes on the pallet but the rest???????????
    Looking at them again tomorrow to see if they have flattened
    I agree when "plastic, vinyl" flooring tries to go back to that curled shape is going to be a problem if the sun gets onto the area which is one of the main reasons I do not want to know
    Maybe picking another brand of which we have never had trouble shrink wrapped and all. Straight out of the box onto the floor
    We do use a more expensive type acrylic Not a true pressure sensitive
  14. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    • Like Like x 1
  15. So then when the product is down and that occurs they try to fault the installer.
  16. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Well how did you get on Incognito?
    My ones still looked the same
    Think the owner is swapping brands
  17. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Its Sunday today and the planks do not look much different SUNDAY.jpg SUNDAY2.jpg
  18. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    CFP I just remembered that when you mentioned packing the planks the planks were stacked in their boxes with one layer going one way then with the next layer were stacked on top at right angles to the layer under it
    The planks were a real interesting shape when we got them after sitting a couple of days getting cooked in the containers crossing the equator then cooling down when the planks arrived in new Zealand
    Those boxes took a few hours to flatten unlike the ones I have
    Since the manufacturers started stacking the boxes on top of each other without the criss crossing that problem has now gone
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    Not good. We'll be back to deal with it shortly. Not sure how much can be done.
  20. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    30th April.jpg 28th April.jpg

    How did you get on Incognito?
    Went back to my one today with a different brand of planks. The existing ones still look the same
    Can you see the difference?
    The top photo was the new brand laying there straight out of the box
    The bottom photos are the ones which have been laying there from the first day with the photo taken yesterday
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2019

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