We have noises from floor covered with vinyl planks

Discussion in 'Vinyl Flooring Q&A' started by dmsdrm, Apr 27, 2017.

  1. dmsdrm

    dmsdrm Member

    We just bought a spec home in the Phoenix Az area. It has Shaw Primero Plank vinyl Flooring in the entire 2882 sq ft of house except the 4 bedrooms .. In the purchase price of the home it listed the flooring and price charged against home of 10,600. Well on walk through i mentioned how much noise it made and how the sounds were different as you made your way around the house, you could hear the hollow slapping change tone as you walked about. Sales staff then stated it was a newer style of floating floor and that's how they sound. I said for 10,600 that i would have to question that.. So they said the could have it looked at. They sent an installer out " i've heard and seen worse" he tells me and that how it is.. Unsatisfied , I make another complaint to Customer Care with the builder. They send out an independent inspector representing Shaw Flooring and in the 15 mins he was at the home he wanted to talk more about my 197lb and 163lb Mastiffs than my floor. And stated " is it worth living through the mess of a tear out" or " isn't this just something you can just live with" Well, he sends back his report to the builder that the flooring seems to be free of any defects and some of the odd noise I'm hearing could be attributed to my large dogs. Duh, but the flooring itself was never the concern. I have some construction background and I am ignorant of how a floating floor should sound compared to one glued down. So I wrote a long email to the higher ups. The next day the Cust Care manager is out my house telling me " I've read the reports and your lengthy email as well as Googled and read up on the concerns, and i've been doing this for 20 years so i know whats best to do here and we are going to fix your concerns ." we talked for a few on whats best, I did not want a new floor and can live with some noise , I'm not a complete ass. So we agreed that the installers company would come out the following Monday to take a count of how much replacement floor would be needed with pulling up and leveling concrete below. Appointment set , wife and I happy, my 15 year old daughter laughs cause it will no longer sound as she is wearing flip flop when walking around the house barefoot . Mind you 4 of our 6 kids are still home it frustrating that over 60% of your steps ring out in different tones.. Anyway, Appointment came and went installer didn't show. Not a call, nothing. So I contact builder again and i talk to the same lady every time and she knows I'm not mad at her just the issues .. She says the installer wants to come out with the manager and his boss to review and double check..I said I will wait here for them. She laughs ,it will be tomorrow i said i will not leave till the have come and gone...when we hung up i knew what to expect next. The follow morning about 10 she calls and states they are on the way..3.5 hours later they show and while waiting i had sent her an email saying sorry but i know that when we are done meeting I will be contacting her as they are going to tell me the floor is fine and were not fixing it . And iI may be angry so sorry in Advance.And that is what happened. The installer comes with a straight edge saying the floor can be 1/16th out over 6 ft ( oh my father owned a masonry business for 28 years building custom homes and i was highly involved ) and he states the with of a credit card is fine. He's showing me my flooring is within spec. I kept quite knowing that being locked together it will appear as level and I knew my mouth would get me in trouble , and the home builder big wig wasn't even looking that direction of his assessment . I say I have some construction experience and there is an issue. The big wig states, I've been doing construction for 40 years so i know when something isn't right , i have standards.. WELL NEEDLESS TO SAY , when i said " you see , right there is the problem... your standards are ones I wouldn't be proud of if i were you because the quality of work that has been put into this home I am embarrassed by,and I'm the buyer and if we didn't have to to buy and move into a home in 45 days i would have never bought from this company" and now i still have a noisy floor and the 3rd step i take onto it every morning makes that noise and has me hating this entire house.. At 400k this home should have better attention to it. Sorry its kinda of a vent , but where do I go next. Im at the point of tearing it all out and dropping it off at there main office front door with a note. Any chance of a refund. i also tried giving much info as possible , Thanks
     
  2. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain Owner/Founder Administrator

    You replied to a 4-year old topic. I moved your post to its own topic.
     
  3. dmsdrm

    dmsdrm Member

    I'm still trying to figure this out Thank you
     
  4. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain Owner/Founder Administrator

    That's okay, forums aren't always intuitive. You might want to click the Edit Post button on your message above and kinda break your message up in easier to read paragraph breaks. A wall of text like that is sometimes intimidating to people. I just want you to have the best chance of getting support.

    Jim
     
  5. I'm sure one of the installers will come in and offer some input for the 1/16" measured OVER TOP OF a floor. As we all can guess, the vinyl will "eat" a little bit of the actual waviness of the subfloor. It doesn't take a genius to know that.

    The question becomes HOW MUCH different is the level taken over a LAID FLOOR going to be when compared to the ACTUAL subfloor.

    It is possible to remove the floor and assess the ACTUAL subfloor waviness factor (the thing that gives you the trouble with floating flooring). Which will give you the true number. At that point, you are half way to a "remove and replace" event (everything's removed...now you just have to replace it).

    Without knowing the vinyl used nor the thickness of the plank, it is hard to say the manufacturer's tolerance. If the waviness is roughly the same as what was measured OVER TOP of the laid floor, then it is within tolerance for SOME vinyls...but not all.

    As for noise - yah. Sorry but vinyl is not the best for acoustics. And it is notoriously difficult to add acoustic underlay (or any underlay for that matter). A glue down would get rid of the "hollow" sound but it won't get rid of any of the other noise related issues (echo...etc).

    I can't help beyond that. I really wish you luck. The "up charge" of $10,600 for 2882sf offers a $3.67/sf price tag on this. That's not very high for a decent vinyl. Some of the better products (thicker, with cork underlay attached, etc) retail for $4.69/sf or higher. Some of the really low end vinyl can be found for $1.99/sf. I'm not sure where yours would fall because it is a new build.

    Good luck. Hopefully someone will help with the measurements and tolerances. The ONLY hope you have is the TOLERANCE. Which means you need to find the manufacturer of the vinyl and find their requirements. You then have to have access to the subfloor itself (not the surface of the vinyl) to check for waviness tolerances. ONLY IF you can PROVE the floor was installed OUTSIDE of the manufacturer's tolerance, will you have a hope in hades on this one. I really wish you well on this. I hope something can be done!
     
  6. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    You got my support brother!

    Well if you put a straightedge over top of floor, of course it's not going to follow the gaps/contour underneath. The connected floor seals an even plane, floating over and gapping underneath.

    There's so many issues about proper floor prep to get a flat surface is somewhat rare. So what occured is that your slab was probably not flat enough for the type of floor chosen. This is an assumption, I don't know what floor you've chosen. Unflat Floors also leads to gaps in certain types of flooring, the locking mechanisms fatigue/deteriorate from the forces applied downward with the airspace allowing it to move.

    Document! Because later down the road your pets may scratch the surface and they will say your pets scratched the floors and you just want a new floor.

    So when ceramic tile follows the contours of slab, there becomes lippage on the surface. No gaps underneath, but the issue is now appearance on surface.

    Didn't read Stephanie's post until after I posted mine, but same conclusion means 2and0 on the actual substrate variance
     
  7. dmsdrm

    dmsdrm Member

    Last edited: Apr 27, 2017
  8. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    I believe it's this line.

    Floorte' Premio Plank

    Says it's Flexible, first time I've seen that claim.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2017
  9. dmsdrm

    dmsdrm Member

    Yes it is. Just different shade. Thank you all so far for your help!
     
  10. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    You sure did pack a lot of info in your first post. Installer said he's heard worse, that's truthful. These floating floors bother me just because of sound. They offer an underlayment to "quiet" it down.

    The Industry is well aware of your concern with noise. I'm not sure how they resolve this, minor variation in slab you will get different sound, similar to a musical instrument.

    Independent Shaw Rep, that's not a word, like my Wife's friends husband saying he's an "excellent flyer" ( had some issues from a ski trip) The Shaw rep is trying to get you to like the product, sway you into accepting the sound.

    So Stephanie has experience with acoustics, products. I'm not sure how your complaint is accommodated. I don't know when picking a product they inform customer of the acoustical dislikes.
     
  11. dmsdrm

    dmsdrm Member

    Mike , I've read a few post that had replies of needing more info so I layed it out there. As for the Rep. I was told he was hired by Shaw and an independent but did seem to want me to jut be ok with it. As for the underlayment I will look into. This was a home that a couple had picked all the options including the flooring. And the financing fell apart. When we moved in I had the Builder send out the same" I've heard worse"guy to
    Address a large hump in the floor. Turns out on one side of my dinning there was a sink for a wet bar they deleted and floor was not smooth to say the least but on the other side the 6!inch round looking bulge in the floor, 2 plank in from side wall was a 1-1/4in Hexhead Machine screw they missed on clean up and put the flooring right. And I'm sorry that the pictures are sideways. I figure it out soon. The look we love, just going to fight home builder for underlayment to quiet this up
    Thank you sir !
     

    Attached Files:

  12. Chris Mha

    Chris Mha Charter Member Senior Member


    Mike, the OP said this was an independent inspector. Independents are not in the position to sway a client into liking a product. I think the inspector needs to go for further ethics training
     
  13. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    Elmer posted an excerpt from a manufacturer that said something about excluding warranty on the product making noise, not sure what brand, or if they all now have that exclusion.

    Turning my phone flat and sideways, that is a nice looking floor, Decor colors/wall etc. very nice.
     
  14. The installation instructions state the allowance is 3/16" over 10 feet or 1/8" over 6ft (roughly 3mm over 3 meter; or 1mm per 1 meter). If the measurement OVER the floor = 1/16 over 6ft, then the subfloor itself has GOT to be worse than that.

    That's your KEY to getting a result. The underlay will CERTAINLY help. The subfloor prep will do the rest.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2017
  15. dmsdrm

    dmsdrm Member

    Mike the photos are correct on my phone and before upload not sure what went wrong other than from my neck up. Looks good but the long hallway maybe 3 out of 10 steps don't make a slapping noise. And i located this in the info you attached earlier .

    II. SUBFLOOR INFORMATION
    All subfloors must be clean, flat, dry and structurally sound. The correct preparation of the subfloor is a major part of a successful installation. Subfloor must be flat – 3/16" in 10' or 1/8" in 6'.
    Underlayments - For floating installations an underlayment is generally not required. That said, if you prefer an even quieter installation we do offer three approved pads -- Bravo, Groundworks, and Selitac. We recommend installing several planks of Floorte in your room and walking on them to determine if the extra step of underlayment meets your needs better."
     
  16. Nate Hall

    Nate Hall Types With Elbows Senior Member Published

    didn't anyone see the end joint stagger issues? The end joints should have a certain distance of overlap. this is important in a floater as it creates stability. that is one way to get a re-install. once the tear-up is complete you can address the floor flatness issue(s). Personally I like to use a one foot minimum overlap (especially on a floater) even if the installation instructions say eight inch overlap is acceptable. By not following the minimum installation guidelines the installer is going to end up eating this floor. (at least part of it)
    The reality is this will be a construction zone and you, the kids, and your dogs will need to be elsewhere for a couple of days. That's what the rep was referring to when he said "Is it worth it?"
    All the furniture, all the base boards will need to be removed and the concrete ground and floated, cured, and new floor installed.
     
  17. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    I can't see it Nate, but I did stop at a tile distributor yesterday looking through their showroom and took a click at this. Same size tile so that stagger is throughout whole run.
     

    Attached Files:

  18. Nate Hall

    Nate Hall Types With Elbows Senior Member Published

    That crew should be dragged out and horse-whipped!
     
  19. j248

    j248 I Support TFP

    So after war and peace Nate gets an A on the response to the novel.
     
  20. dmsdrm

    dmsdrm Member

    Ok. I have never in my 47 years had such a positive experience with any sort of forum as I have with this. I already feel like I have won. Just by having all of your support in handling this. I have not mentioned that I am in bad health that we sold our larger home to move across town near my wife's brother and his partner. The way things have been going my wife needed a more manageable sized home with no payments and family to help with kids. I need this house to be problem free as much as possible.

    In late June , I'm slated to have my esophagus removed do due to prior over aggressive surgery I had 20 years ago that's been redone 4 times. I'm like the equivalent of sewing Jell-o and my chances of making home to my family is around 35-40%. But if I don't go for it I'm going to loose my life to the complications of all my issues. When my diaphragm burst and my stomach wrapped around my heart they said I was done.
    Not then , here's is all I have to offer as thanks. I owned a company in PHX Az for 18 of the last 20 years. It was a used truck dealership and I'm have extensive knowledge of 1500, 2500, 3500 trucks and am willing to advise , help , and even get you discount. It's all I have left , Knowledge and my family. And I've spent last 2 years raising my kids.
    Anyway the business is still going just sold and sad to do , but check it out and if I may be of any help PLEASE let me. It's www.Liftedtrucks.com

    And I've attached my last Christmas photo of my family ( minus 2 older kids) to show you why I'm so thankful. Me, I'm 32 pounds lighter now sad to say. I WILL KEEP ALL INFORMED WITH THE OUTCOME. GOD BLESS

    IMG_0635.JPG


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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