Water guard

Discussion in 'Flooring Potpourri' started by kwfloors, Nov 11, 2017.

  1. kwfloors

    kwfloors Fuzz on the brain Charter Member Senior Member

  2. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    I do not think they would have too much trouble with freezing floors in that building with the pool on top in their ad The building is at Singapore
  3. kwfloors

    kwfloors Fuzz on the brain Charter Member Senior Member

    Well they staying that cure time of concrete with it is 14 days and then you can cover it. The product has silica in it and we all know that doesn't go well with adhesives and epoxies.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Chris 45

    Chris 45 Director of P.R. on some deserted island. I Support TFP

    I’m wondering what happens to the moisture in the concrete. Does it just stay there? Migrate through the bottom if it’s a suspended slab? How will that affect moisture readings for documentation purposes?
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  5. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain TFP Owner/Founder Administrator

    Here's a video/promo about the product:

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  6. Chris 45

    Chris 45 Director of P.R. on some deserted island. I Support TFP

    Capillaries! I can’t take it.
  7. Somehow no one tells the whole story, the “devil is in the details” I read proper prep and something else that seems there are extra steps. It sounds like a regular densifier used in concrete polishing. I know thinset uses the capillaries to get a better bond. I’d say it’s a risk to bond to product unless ok’d by the adhesive manufacturer or anything bonding to it in writing. Say it’s not approved, how will it be removed? Will it break down and rise to surface under coatings. Too scientific for me, we need some scientists/chemical engineers on call.

    I did read your LinkedIn question to the company the other day.
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2017
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  8. kwfloors

    kwfloors Fuzz on the brain Charter Member Senior Member

    I emailed our town about it as it would keep our concrete bridges and roads from falling apart from the salt they put on for ice melt.
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  9. This product is just another brand of silicoid densifiers that have been on the market for over thirty years. They are coming back into fashion because of all the issues surrounding concrete moisture and moisture sensitive floor coverings.

    Much like anything else in life, if done correctly - the product works, if you get someone playing "field chemistry" it's at best a crap shoot and you can be a big big loser. This issue is a real hot bed of controversy right now so just be cautious if you have to install over these systems. Take some time and educate yourself to the issues surrounding their use and make sure you're protecting yourself from liability the best that you can.

    Here is an article just published on TFP about this issue: Topically Applied Slab Densifiers | The Floor Pro Community
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 13, 2017
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  10. Chris,

    I'm sorry, I missed your post and didn't really answer your question and it's a really, really good one and one that is extremely important as we move forward in the industry.

    In the case of the "after applied" products it prevents any moisture still present in the slab from escaping by closing down the capillary pores to the point that a water vapor molecule cannot pass through them. The moisture is still there. It just, theoretically, cannot go anywhere.

    This raises an interesting point though. These products are being used more and more frequently. What happens 10 or 12 years down the road when the customer is ready to change floors? What if the building has changed hands during that time and no one knows, any longer, that this densifier was used? You come in as the flooring contractor to do the job and you test the slab - boom 100% Rh (with the densifier in the slab you're always going to test 100% Rh)- oh boy we got a problem. Now you begin the process to mitigate the moisture. All of a sudden something isn't quite right. The concrete "feels" funny. It's not shot blasting or grinding quite right. Now what do you do? How do we test it? There's no current ASTM. The only thing I can think is we might all want to get proficient in doing core drilling and buy stock in companies who do it.

    The only way to accurately test a slab with an integral densifier in it is to have it core drilled and sent to a lab. The after applied densifiers will usually have you do a Calcium Chloride test to see if the slab is still emitting moisture. This apparently gives you some idea as to whether the application was done correctly. My only concern is that yes it gives you an idea - in the spot you just tested. What about the rest of the slab? What if they didn't get even coverage on everything? Thus the term "spray and pray".

    You mentioned a suspended slab scenario. Moisture will only come out of a suspended slab if it is open to the air. If it's pan poured over a vented or non-vented pan then moisture will not migrate out of the bottom. You're essentially dealing with the same pressure gradient from bottom (most concentration) to top (least concentration) that you would have in an on-grade or below-grade slab. This catches a lot of people off guard who seem to think that above-grade slabs dry faster. Only if the slab is exposed and drying from both sides will it dry faster. That's why when you have a slab that is exposed on both sides you adjust your moisture probes to a shallower depth; 20% of the thickness vs. 40% with a slab drying from one side.

    Again, I see the widespread use of these additives and after applied densifiers as a real headache down the road. Either the flooring industry will adapt their adhesive systems to work and accept the bond warranty or there will be enough claims, lawsuits and problems that they will just stop using them. If the flooring industry adapts though, it's going to require a change in ASTM F-710 so that they aren't considered potential bond breakers as they are now.
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  11. Chris 45

    Chris 45 Director of P.R. on some deserted island. I Support TFP

    @Commercial Floor Rep darn fine answer and an excellent article on the topic as well. Thank you very much for sharing that information with all of us.
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  12. Daris Mulkin

    Daris Mulkin The One and Only Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Ok CFR these densifiers that are applied and quite frankly I don't really know what they are, but would the Insitu test get below it? Instead of core testing.


  13. kwfloors

    kwfloors Fuzz on the brain Charter Member Senior Member

    I was told this product settles below the surface of the concrete. Like said, a core test won't work and a surface test would be dry.
  14. Once they densify the surface of the concrete the moisture content in the slab below the level of penetration will equilibrate from top to bottom because there is no longer a pressure gradient from the top of the slab (least amount of pressure) to the bottom of the slab (most amount of pressure) so the readings will test at whatever the Rh level would have been if tested correctly prior to the densifier being applied. In the case of slab with no intact vapor retarder or a newly poured slab - like they are saying 14 days after placement - the moisture would test out at 100% forever. Since we wouldn't use a system like this unless we needed it at the very least your most likely going to be the in the very high 90's.
  15. Mark Brown

    Mark Brown On The Surface Flooring I Support TFP

    It just adds a whole new level of "uh-oh" to my job. Befuddles me how many products we have that offer solutions to problems that should never be problems in the first place.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Sometimes the simplest answers are the best...like actually letting the concrete cure properly. Now there's a novel idea.

    But wait, then we wouldn't need all these other products....hmmm. Almost seems like a self fulfilling prophecy...we rush the job so we can do things half assed just to get the job done, then we sell the building owner things to correct the stuff we did wrong and if we just would have taken the time to do them right in the first place it would have cost the same amount of money without all the stress and problems. All because some pencil pusher in college or at a bank that never swung a hammer in their life developed the theory that if we compress the building schedule we can make more money.

    Did you know that the annual costs associated with moisture related flooring failures are now over $1 billion annually? There's a whole segment of our industry now that relies on this problem for their very existence. So is there truly any motivation to really solve the problem or is there more motivation to continue to put a band-aid on the booboo?

    As Steve Martin most famously said in one of my all time favorite movies "The Jerk"..."so, it's a prophet deal!!!"
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  17. Mark Brown

    Mark Brown On The Surface Flooring I Support TFP

    Truer words have never been spoken.
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