Warranty issues

Discussion in 'Vinyl & Rubber Flooring Sales and Installations' started by Tim Ayres, Dec 29, 2019.

  1. Tim Ayres

    Tim Ayres Pro Member

    I have a kitchen and bath showroom in the Midwest. We added flooring about 3 years ago. Our focus is on the contractor market so we do not offer installation. This has worked well for 25 years with cabinets but has been a challenge with flooring. Our first larger project was in July of 2017, approx. 6500 SF of Novalis Lyndon Plank glue down with DriTac 5900 Megabond adhesive. This was in 8 apartment, 4 were main floor over concrete and 4 upstairs units were glued directly to the ¾ Advantech. In August of 2019 The apartment owner called and said there were large gaps at the ends of the flooring. Some of the gaps were more than 1/8” and many of the planks measured 35 7/8”. I had reps from Novalis and DriTac out and neither accept any responsibility. Novalis says their warranty only covers mfg. defects for 1 year and they wont cover performance with someone else’s glue. The reason I used DriTac back then (now I only use what the flooring mfg. recommends),was that my sales rep said that their warranty covered flooring and install. Learning the hard way that that doesn’t help if there is not a glue failure! Both refer to the fact that there should have been underlayment over Advantech but the problem is the same on the concrete. Any advice or comments would be appreciated.
  2. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain TFP Owner/Founder Administrator

    Good to see your first post after 2 and a half years. :D Do you have any photos you can share (use our free upload feature)? Was the material acclimated on-site before installation? Was HVAC operational at the time? Were moisture tests done on the concrete? I might not be able to help much, but these are some of the questions our pros might need to better help you.

    Advantech is a good quality OSB type subfloor material. You should be okay gluing over it, but I wouldn't have. I preferred to future-proof my jobs (been retired now for a long time) by not using glue directly on a wooden subfloor product. I would have installed at least a quarter-inch underlayment plywood over it first. It makes a better substrate and is far easier to remove from the subfloor than glue, if necessary. It also adds strength to the system - not quarter-inch ply so much, but 3/8" or more when strength is a goal.

    Anyway, I expect some of our pros will chime in soon. It's been kinda quiet around here during the holiday, so be patient.
  3. It’s all a croc o crap, the vinyl plank shrinks, they I’m sure are well aware of it maybe have already burned the documents. I’d call ?, I’m not really sure who’s on who’s side anymore.

    Reason you’re seeing the end joints show more is because it’s 10 times the distance of the width joints. I don’t think the plank knows it’s dimensions.

    It’s well documented, the vinyl inspectors know,

    I’ve been raising this issue for awhile. Wait till all this connected vinyl starts shrinking and they blame it on unflat floor(aka installation)

    I’ve been busy all day putting in a reverse osmosis system. If it were golf, the compression fitting was a whole in one. Used a telescopic magnet then Drill baby drill, still didn’t find it.

    Shrinking Vinyl Plank is a Dimensional Stability issue. Either live with it, join a class action peanut lawsuit, grout it with vinyl flooring grout. Let me know if you decide that (is it done shrinking?)

    So uh, removed tile other day, 70 ft oak next to house, branches shadowing roof, sidewalk heaving I’m sure roots will cause cracking issues. There’s a lot of problems with flooring, it’s not easy to avoid.

    Think it was Novalis I had on trailer to use under my aluminum ramps on driveway. It has become brittle, like VCT. part of the plasticizer migration issues.

    I don’t really like touching plastic anymore with all the proposition 65 warnings, and I handle a lot of plastic.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Dec 29, 2019
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  4. Mark Brown

    Mark Brown On The Surface Flooring I Support TFP

    Vinyl Shrinks over time. Thats the end of that story.
    See the thing no one in industry likes to talk about is that there are millions of square feet of nothing more than what amounts to an on going science experiment in the field out there. Manufacturers like to lower costs and come up with all kinds of fun ways to accomplish this, like "NEW FORMULATION" but what they fail to mention is its new to them and what looks great on paper and in the lab, well... time will tell wont it.

    Edit... Mike beat me to it lol
    Its all crap, 100% crap. The sooner everyone catches on, the happier we all will be. Now the effects can be limited by lack of sunlight, temperature swings, PROPER INSTALLATION but in the end, as that vinyl literally loses its chemical composition it will shrink. Plain, Simple, Science!
  5. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain TFP Owner/Founder Administrator

    I have 2 different brands of vinyl plank in my apartment. One is a direct glue-down, the other is floating with self-adhesive strips. The floater is 10 years old this month, the other is more than 8½ years old. Neither is shrinking. I followed the instructions, fudged where my budget or health necessitated it and have mistreated and abused them ever since. No gaps, no lifting, so perceptible shrinking.

    That's not to say other products in that category won't perform differently - worse - but my point is we can't make blanket statements like that. They aren't all the same and we shouldn't be so quick to excuse or dismiss an issue based on our prejudices.
  6. Tim Ayres

    Tim Ayres Pro Member

    There are a few issues. First, I don't have control of wheather or not they use underlayment since I don't install or manage the install. I did sell the adhesive as mentioned in the post but I don't think that is the problem. The product was acclimated and the HVAC was running but this stuff seems to continue to shrink. There was about 2 months between the first time I looked at it and the time the reps came out and it had gotten worse in that time. To me this looks like a material issue but Novalis is sticking to their 1 year warranty even though 2 years later their flooring is not something most people would live with. Here are a few other points I should mention, there were no moisture tests on either substraight. The flooring is "end doming" in the units with the wood substrate and not in the units with concrete. There is also less shrinkage in the units over concrete...Thanks for your replies!
  7. kwfloors

    kwfloors Fuzz on the brain Charter Member Senior Member

    Renters don't know what to clean with if they ever clean much. Probably another reason they didn't back it longer than a year.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    The first thing I would look for a steam Mop in the house somewhere
    We have laid miles of these with no problems that I am aware of
    These brand of planks has a layer of Fibre Glass which supposedly makes them more stable. I believe Karndeans similar
    Moduleo Select | Luxury Vinyl Planking » Robert Malcolm Ltd
  9. kylenelson

    kylenelson You'll find me on the floor I Support TFP Senior Member

    I’m interested in your post. We have a large client that specs VERY low end lvp ($1.25 ft retail maybe) and we install with the dritac 5900 glue. Only real problems have been shrinkage over wood underlayments. Multiple installers in a variety of locations have the same issue with almost 1/8” gaps. Mostly, we are installing over concrete or pre-existing vinyl with very few issues. I’m curious if this a glue issue, a trowel notch issue or what. I know of one guy that switched over to a 1/16 square trowel to help battle this. Seems extreme.
  10. kwfloors

    kwfloors Fuzz on the brain Charter Member Senior Member

    We are using Uzin KE 2000s adhesive on lvp, they tested it and it won't break loose from the floor even when it tries to shrink.
  11. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    We had a rep from Karndean who reckoned that laying over a timber product seemed to have more trouble than laying over a concrete type product like Feather Finish spread over the timber type subfloor. It seemed to "seal the glue" on timber type sub floors
  12. I surmise the reason a lot of people in the flooring industry do not post on this forum is because it is their job to make money for themselves. All there is is us until you hire them for I’m sure, substantial information on probably the exact product.

    I agree Jim, you can’t lump every vinyl together, but you can lump the exact products spread across the US, and beyond.

    And if you blame steam on everything I wouldn’t be here. One word - Plastics
  13. Chris 45

    Chris 45 Director of P.R. on some deserted island. I Support TFP

    Who was responsible for the maintenance of the floor. If it was regularly sealed, waxed or somehow finished and maintained this may not have happened. How about what happens when an apartment sits vacant with the heat off.
  14. kwfloors

    kwfloors Fuzz on the brain Charter Member Senior Member

    It freezes up here, Chris. Then everything shrinks and water expands.
  15. Does the new not installed flooring in the box measure the same?

    I’d like to see a picture of the shape (convex?) of the Flooring down.

    I’ve heard a large apartment/assisted living complex here vinyl plank failed, they blamed moisture, retailer I talked to recommended shotblasting and moisture barrier applied. That ain’t cheap.
  16. Chris 45

    Chris 45 Director of P.R. on some deserted island. I Support TFP

    That’s what I’m talkin about. If the manufacturer can just up and say not it and walk away, why can’t the installer or material supplier say not it for exactly the same reasons. We all know what’s going on. And it’s out of warranty to boot.
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  17. kwfloors

    kwfloors Fuzz on the brain Charter Member Senior Member

    Had a house with cork that the homeowner turned the heat down to 40 when they went back to Canada. Stuff shrunk back inches from end joints.
    • Funny Funny x 1

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