Ultaviolet light

Discussion in 'Vinyl Flooring Q&A' started by Jon Scanlan, Dec 22, 2006.

  1. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    There was talk awhile ago about stains in vinyls. I found this a couple of days ago. The vinyl was asbestous backed and been down about 30 years
     

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  2. hookknife

    hookknife Hard Surface Installer Charter Member Senior Member

    Looks like it was pretty well hardened, uv's do that to vinyl, they cause the plasticizers to migrate from the product and the hardening begins:)
     
  3. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    There were comments before about the vinyl changing colour because of heating vents etc. As seen in the picture no heating vents or heaters there. We used to get this situation alot before in front of ranchsliders and by the backdoor. We have a very high UV rate here as the ozone layer is disappearing. The vinyls nowday must have a protective layer on them now as this type of situation has disappeared as say 20/30years ago
     
  4. Ken Peirson

    Ken Peirson Charter Member

    I found this topic interesting and thought we might elaborate on this subject as not all the information here is correct.
    I have been reading the board for awhile and I have read some really interesting posts and I like that Jim keeps the boards professional so that discussions and debates are encouraged instead of petty arguements.
    So, in keeping with that spirit I disagree with the comment that UV radiation caused the hardening seen in the picture. However, the loss of plasticizers over time have indeed caused the hardening.
    So let's discuss what caused the plasticizer evaporation and why it's not UV radiation.
    Any thoughts?
     
  5. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    First off, welcome aboard ResilientMan.

    U/V degradation and plasticizer migration are not the same thing. Plasticizer migration as I understand it is the oils or softening agents leaving the vinyl surface. Now this can be speeded up by U/V light, heat, and airborne chemicals.

    Can we add more?
     
  6. Floorguy

    Floorguy The Living Dead Charter Member Senior Member


    Yep, I'm in agreement with the both of you.

    Plasticizer loss, which can be accelerated by heat.
     
  7. Peter Kodner

    Peter Kodner Inspector Floors Charter Member Senior Member

    And we all know the temperature of a floor in direct sunlight can be substantially higher than the air temp.
     
  8. hookknife

    hookknife Hard Surface Installer Charter Member Senior Member

    Please give youre thoughts.:)
     
  9. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    As I mentioned earlier this is in New Zealand where our ozone layer has holes in it. Nobody here would put a white woollen jersey on the clothes line as it would go yellow. Also we have a very high melinoma (skin cancer) rate per head of population here as well. The black piece in the corner would get the morning sun and sun on it for the rest of the day until the sun set.
     
  10. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    TV news just said UV levels the highest it has been for 6 years. Watch sun between hoiurs of 11am till 4 pm due to the holes in the ozone layer over Antartica
     
  11. Floorguy

    Floorguy The Living Dead Charter Member Senior Member

    I see what you saying now.

    There is a dark redish area there, on the piece left.
     
  12. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    There was a fair amount along the far window which I had lifted before I thought about getting a photo, you can see some in the rubbish on the floor. Just about the whole room just flipped off the floor it was very brittle.
     
  13. hookknife

    hookknife Hard Surface Installer Charter Member Senior Member

    I see this alot around sliding glass doors in homes where the afternoon sun beats down on the vinyl for several hours per day, I stand by my original guess:D
    Jon very interesting, I thought you were kidding about the ozone layer in youre area!

    There are several things that can cause plastisizers to migrate, chemical reaction, heat , uv's etc. An example would be a rubberbacked walkoff mat on top of a pvc product, a yellowing will usually occur:)
     
  14. Daniel Wachtel

    Daniel Wachtel Charter Member

    I'll say it got baked (UV degradation) and has little to do with plasticizer migration. Plasticizers will migrate from one kind of plastic to another far more readily than than it will "evaporate or leave".
     
  15. Ken Peirson

    Ken Peirson Charter Member

    Wow! I got more interest in this little topic than I thought which is great.
    Lets cover a couple of comments:
    1. UV degradation & plasticizer migration are NOT the same thing as RG Floor pointed out.
    But UV degradation only potentially contributes to discoloration of the vinyl and with the UV blockers present in most vinyls it is infrequent and has nothing to do with the hard, brittle vinyl Jon posted a picture of.
    UV radiation is used to cure urethane wearlayers during manufacturing so the plasticizers can't be affected by the UV radiation the comes into homes. UV radiation does have 3 main classification dependant on wavelength length but none of them affect the plasticizers. Wikipedia has a very nice but in-depth description of UV radiation for anyone interested.
    2. Two seperate responses listed things that can accelerate plasticizer migration as UV, heat, chemical reaction & airborne chemicals.
    Heat is the main reason for plasticizer migration in almost all cases. As UV radiation has no effect we have to tavel to the oter end of the spectrum (literally) as IR radiation can cause the migration BUT it is through the heat it produces instead of the radiation wavelength. SO if any radiation can be named as a supporting culprit it is IR and not UV.
    The chemical interaction can be a reason for staining if certain plasticizers interact between vinyl products but staining is where it stops. The plasticizers have not left the products totally but have interacted and seeked an equilibrium between products resulting in the discoloration.
    It is important to note that plasticizer migration leading to staining is not the same type of migration that occurs either naturally over time or due to heat acceleration that causes the plasticizers to leave and/or evaporate.
    On this point, and out of curiosity, please list the chemical interactions or airborne chemicals that you believe are causing the migration. I am especially interested in the airborne chemicals you believe to be at fault.
    3. Will plasticizers more readily migrate from one plastic to another or evaporate?
    It depends on the type of plasticizer and it's intended purpose. All plasticizers are not created equally but tend to be lumped together in a catch-all excuse, especially in our industry.
    Larger, complex plasticizers last longer than smaller, simple plasticizers. The same plasticizers are not used in rubber gloves that are used in beach balls, garbage bags or kiddie pools.
    If I left a pair of rubber gloves in a kiddie pool I would not get staining but the gloves (without the UV protection) would breakdown due to the migration caused by the heat from the IR radiation, in time. In this instance the plasticizer has evaporated (prematurely) but has not transfered from one to the other.
    Additionally, a small & anticipated amount of plasticizer usually evaporates right after the manufacturing process. So, I don't think it easily stated that plasticizers will migrate from one to another more so than evaporate.
    With this in mind, it becomes clear that the volatile oils called plasticizers are engineered differently for different uses and the evaporation rates are understood and planned to keep flooring flexible & flat.
    Keeping all of this in mind: what circumstances would plasticizer evaporation at an accelerated rate be beneficial & even desired?
    Again, great responses and participation.
     
  16. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    The airborne chemicals that I was refering to was NO2 Nitrogen dioxide. Formed by incomplete combustion of natural gas. When a gas stove or fireplace is not burning completely it can form enough to discolor white vinyl in the immediate vicinity. I believe Tandy calls it 'Nitrigation ' sp, you welcome to pipe up Tandy. I have seen it only a couple of times.
     
  17. hookknife

    hookknife Hard Surface Installer Charter Member Senior Member

    Very nice, So the loss of plasticizers was the over heating of the product????
    What of the discoloration though??, If the UV blockers are in the product what is the discoloration from?? This same discoloration is often found around heating vents, under refrigerators next to glass sliders etc. and the hardening is also present in these areas, "loss of plasticizers" responsible for hardining but not the discoloration??
     
  18. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    What happens to white woollen jerseys? No heaters, no fridges etc just our SUN I seem to remember someone telling me they used to put new born babies in sun behind the glass windows to give them colour or something like that or for some other reason that I can't remember. 30 odd years ago
     
  19. hookknife

    hookknife Hard Surface Installer Charter Member Senior Member

    Another thought is how the uv's make the yellow drying room film on linoleum dissapear,Now I have more research to do:( hehehhee
     
  20. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Bryan are you talking about the begining shade of the roll that comes right? I thought that was oxidisation
     
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