Trowel size question

Discussion in 'Ceramic and Stone Q&A' started by RaymondReddington, May 15, 2018.

  1. RaymondReddington

    RaymondReddington New Member

    A little background on project:

    I am going to be installing 12x24 porcelain rectified tile (brick pattern) in our condo bathroom & laundry, approx. 65 sq. feet total with a 1/8" grout line. Existing floor is vinyl that is firmly glued to existing concrete with definilty no weak or peeling areas.

    Will be using TSP cleaner on existing vinyl to ensure its clean, then applying Mapei Eco Perm Grip to vinyl. Once dried will be using Mapei Ultralite mortar to affix Mapei’s Mapeguard UM membrane then Ultralite mortar again to attach tile.


    What size trowel should I be using to:
    1) Apply the mortar to attach the membrane?
    2) Apply the mortar to attach the tile?
     
  2. RaymondReddington

    RaymondReddington New Member

  3. Lazarus

    Lazarus Pro Member

    Why don't you pull the vinyl? Not a good idea when there is a good concrete base to use. Not in my world...
     
  4. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    Ok, you are confused, so am I so let’s go back a little further.

    1. Concrete on grade? Or above grade(no dirt underneath)

    2. Are you needing a sound reduction for floor below?

    3. How flat is the floor?

    4. Mapegard just gets a primer, peel and stick crack isolation membrane. There is mapesonic? Which is a sound transmission reducer.

    For the tile in a small area I would use minimum 3/8” U notch. Mark has some fancy trowels design genes for large tile which lets you maneuver tile into place.

    The LFT(Large Format Tile) thinset bag Will suggest a notch. Which medium bed mortar you using?

    I think I would scuff the vinyl as long as it’s not asbestos. The cleaning solution seems sound and thinset right over that dam vinyl.
     
  5. Mark Brown

    Mark Brown On The Surface Flooring I Support TFP

    superiorbuilt-platinum-notch-trowel.png Lets anwser your question first...

    LFT - 1/2 by 1/2 square notch trowel would be your standard. I use to use them, then i switched to these beauties. SuperiorBilt Premium Series Notch Trowel They work very well, but a 1/2 x 1/2 is perfectly fine.

    For that particular membrane you are looking at a 1/4 x 3/16 V notch, however i would recommend a 1/4 x 1/4 for better coverage.

    Why are you installing a membrane anyhow.. ??
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  6. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    So they make a cleavage membrane like Schluter Ditra now? Can’t find it on their app.

    Uncoupling Membrane like Ardex Flexbone, or the others that now make them.

    I’m not a fan of 1/2”, not a fan of it bonding insanely as well. It sure doesn’t matter if hardwood is extremely bonded, it doesn’t stop cupping.
     

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    Last edited: May 15, 2018
  7. Mark Brown

    Mark Brown On The Surface Flooring I Support TFP

    tile installation methods change more than I change my underwear. It's insane. I get a right proper kick out of all the anti fracture hoopla put there. Not so long ago... a bit of duct tape or fiber mesh over a crack was considered isolation.... now it's the wild wild west of innovation.

    Wonder if the Romans had ditra...
     
  8. RaymondReddington

    RaymondReddington New Member

    Would U recommend not using a membrane? Just going directly over the vinyl? Does that not open up the chances for cracking?
     
  9. Mark Brown

    Mark Brown On The Surface Flooring I Support TFP

    I do not think i have a particular recommendation one way or the other about a membrane, i was just curious for your reasoning. I think it probably IS a good idea, i was just wondering what you were trying to achieve. I haven't laid a lot of tile over vinyl (one kitchen) so i wouldn't really feel comfortable making recommendations based on my experience.

    I do think your plan is sound however. A decoupling membrane should save you from any of the pitfalls associated with installations over vinyl.
     
  10. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    Duct tape? What idiot would do that?

    Real time, just now, mastic for setting.
     

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  11. Mark Brown

    Mark Brown On The Surface Flooring I Support TFP

    but the question is did the tile crack...
     
  12. Chris 45

    Chris 45 Director of P.R. on some deserted island. I Support TFP

    I’ve seen plenty of tile laid over vinyl down here. Perimeter glue at that. The grout is what usually starts to break up first.
     
  13. Mark Brown

    Mark Brown On The Surface Flooring I Support TFP

    WOW!!
    perimeter glue and tile... now that I think I might lose some sleep over.

    Full disclosure, I laid one tile floor over peel and stick vinyl tile...over top of 3/4 inch t&g with a old layer of vinyl... MapeI ker 121 and away I went. It was a rental so the mentality was meh tile is better than what was there.....

    9 years later and it is still solid as a rock according to the landlord so really... it's just a lot of unknowns and when one of them goes sideways it doesn't end well. It CAN work well...
     
  14. Mark Brown

    Mark Brown On The Surface Flooring I Support TFP

    What are you doing disagreeing with things again Mike.... :p
     
  15. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    I’ve seen plenty of Duct taped tile cracks, I’ve seen a lot, nowadays I’m seeing dollar signs ripping it all up.

    I’ve seen plenty of tile over vinyl perfect 15-20 years later. Removed one last week that the retailer said he didn’t want vinyl and adhesive removed for 1$ a foot(300?) ft. Kitchen. Vinyl floating going back down.

    I’ve seen sheet vinyl scraped and tile set over which holds way less than if set on top of sheet vinyl.

    Notice the mastic sticking to the tile but not slab, my kinda favorite.

    The Eddy I bought was because of you Mark. Went back to pawn shop and asked them the price, they went the google route but didn’t find it, 125 plus tax and credit card fee. I’ll rig up a blade for probably mapegard tight spot removals.

    Hardwood- no transition, butted to tile (termite damage). It was kinda compressed. Some jobs like cutting tile at a doorway I have to release the tension at a grout joint prior to cutting doorway, the saved area can crack from the lateral pressure.
     

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    Last edited: May 16, 2018
  16. Mark Brown

    Mark Brown On The Surface Flooring I Support TFP

    The eddy definitly isn't the best tool going for removal but it is small enough to get a lot of jobs done. It eats vct and to a lesser extent sheet products. My home made dustram... not so much lol
     
  17. Tom Potter

    Tom Potter I Support TFP

    Just when i thought i heard it all i see this. I can't even wrap my head around a perimeter glued tile job.

    I guess that installer was a diehard advocate of the 3 G's holding his tile down. God, gravity & grout. Unbelievable.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  18. Chris 45

    Chris 45 Director of P.R. on some deserted island. I Support TFP

    Unfortunately I deleted the pictures but they didn’t even remove the 1/4 round or undercut the jambs. Grouted right over the naplock too. I was afraid I was going to pop a tile while removing the carpet.
     
  19. Mark Brown

    Mark Brown On The Surface Flooring I Support TFP

    Of course we can do your tile for a dollar a square foot... All in baby!!
     
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