This time its POLITICAL

Discussion in 'Industry News, Training & Organizations' started by Nate Hall, Jun 19, 2014.

  1. Nate Hall

    Nate Hall Types With Elbows Senior Member Published

    The S600 ANSI standards document is once again being offered by the IICRC for public review. I have an issue with this for several reasons.
    First and foremost is the IICRC ! Who says the IICRC is in charge of who sees (or does not see) this set of INSTALLATION standards. Why is the carpet cleaner's organization trying to build a fence around the S600?
    "Oh, you want to see the standards for installation?...Please pay at this window"
    How much blood, sweat, and tears have carpet cleaners put into the perfection of carpet installation? (well that's how much they will probably stand behind any installer)
    Second is the other bodies involved in the construction of the document itself. Only 4 people with ANY installation experience were at the table when the standards for all installation were set forth. 4?!?!We couldn't get more than 4 guys to put 2 cents worth into the rule book?
    Third is the obvious use for the S600 is as a weapon to crush most installers in court. Why? Because most installers don't even know the rules of the game. The S600 is going to be a fine tuned weapon in the hands of insurance company lawyers. Sure it will get rid of Larry, Moe, and Curly first but there are a lot of descent installer who have quit already and to thin the herd even more could be disastrous. The mills already are saying there aren't enough certified installers out there now to make certified installation mandatory. Now they can continue to play the heads I win, tails you lose game they have been playing with installers for years.
    There are many organizations out there and if you are not part of any group of installation professionals now is the time to get in the game!! Get a rule book and get involved before it is too late!!
     
  2. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    They make the product and call the shots, they find out what fails and tweek the instructions in their favor.
    I don't quite understand why the iicrc is formulating an install standards, I'm sure they don't follow it in all their cleaning and restoration side.
    I don't know how headquarters of the CFI are doing, maybe an e mail or a phone call just to say hay we are working here.
     
  3. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain Owner/Founder Administrator

    What is the IICRC? They answer that with this: "The Mission of the IICRC is to establish and advance globally recognized standards and certifications for the inspection, cleaning, restoration and installation industries." IICRC stands for Institute of Inspection, Cleaning and Restoration Certification. Calling them a carpet cleaning organization is as bad as calling CFI a carpet installers organization. Neither is true and you can name a wide array of expertise in several segments of the flooring industry that both have become known for and held in high regard for around the world. IICRC started out as a cleaning organization just as CFI stated out as a carpet installers organization. If you give one credit for their diversification and success in bringing better training and more professionalism to the industry, you must give the same credit to the other.

    We should stop this disparaging rhetoric we have for organizations that have gone to great lengths to support the flooring industry and flooring professionals. Most of it is based on tired old ideas. CFI grew to the tremendous organization it is today and it was a long difficult struggle with these very same kinds of biased remarks. IICRC ain't perfect yet, neither is CFI.

    I don't know what this is about. You didn't elaborate. But the S600 is available, in its present form, to download for free: S600 Standard and RG for Public Review And you can also download the IICRC S600 Second Public Review Comment Form.

    I think I addressed this above. They aren't just carpet cleaners. But even cleaners are affected by poorly installed carpet and I know a few carpet cleaners that could put a lot of so-called carpet installers to shame in a skills contest.

    Now we get to the crux of your problem with the S600. Installers RULE! No, in fact, they don't. They are an integral part of the whole, but then so is manufacturing, sales, inspections, yes, even cleaning and every other segment of the industry involved in carpet. Here is a list of every flooring professional involved:

    • IICRC Standards Committee:
      • IICRC Standards Chairman - Howard Wolf, HW3 Consulting, Inc.
      • IICRC Restoration Division Vice Chair - Chris Taylor, Aspire Training Group
      • IICRC S500 Committee Chairman - Mickey Lee, Mickey Lee Consulting, LLC
      • IICRC S500 Committee Vice-Chairman - Chris Taylor, Aspire Training Group
      • IICRC Standards Director - Mili Washington, IICRC
      • IICRC Legal Counsel - Charles A. Isley, Christel & Isely, LLP
    • IICRC S600 Consensus Body Members
      • IICRC S600 Consensus Body Chairman - Tom Jennings, WFCA
      • IICRC S600 Consensus Body Vice-Chairman - Jeff Bishop, Clean Care Seminars, Inc.
      • Andrew Smith, Mohawk Industries
      • Bob Robert Blochinger, Blochinger-Shepard Associates
      • Dave Barkstedt, Elite Consultants, Inc.
      • David Romero, So. Cal. Resilient Floor & Decorative Covering JATC
      • Fred Williamson, Starnet Worldwide
      • Grace Gilbreath, XL Brands
      • Greg Raborn, Beaulieu of America
      • Jack Dean, Greater PA Carpenters JATC
      • Jim Walker, Certified Floor Covering Installers Association
      • John McGrath, INSTALL
      • John Sloan, The Blakley Corporation
      • Kenneth E. Rigmaiden, International Union of Painters and Allied Trades
      • Richard Bo Bodo, Windsor Industries
      • Andrew Smith, Mohawk Industries
      • Robert Varden, SeamMaster Industries
      • Sim Crisler, LGM & Associates Technical Flooring Services
      • Woody Belflower, Shaw Industries
      • Tom Cartmell, CSR Flooring Consultants
    • Consensus Body Alternate Members:
      • Lew Migliore, Alternate to Sim Crisler, LGM & Associates Technical Flooring Services
      • Steve Havens, Alternate to Ken Rigmaiden, International Union of Painters and Allied Trades
    I see several manufacturers represented there. They make a lot of different types of carpets, with a bunch of different types of backings and many of them differ in the ways they can be installed. Do you really think any old installer can pick up a carpet they have never seen before and know how to install it? Even if they were allowed a few trial and error situations, they still wouldn't know how their installation methods will affect the carpet long term. So, to me, the manufacturer is an essential part of the process. But the manufacturer also must cater to market demands - customers who want softer carpets, those that need carpets to be modular, those who want old-world style and craftsmanship, but new world durability, carpets that must be cleaned many thousands of times in the course of its life.

    There's those damn cleaners again. But hey, don't they spend far more time on maintaining and repairing the carpet than you do? You take a day to install it, they take part of a day every year, over and over again and keep trying to make your beautiful installation stay beautiful.

    There are other pros in that list who also play important roles. Yes, I will agree that part of it is politics. That's the case with so much of life today.

    I am as pessimistic as you about this, but I need to see the evidence you see that supports this contention. Maybe I've been away from installations for too long. Maybe I never had previous issues that relate to this. How can this standard be any more anti-installer than the previous standards? How has any ANSI standard supported this accusation in their related fields?

    How? Please be specific. You are involved heavily in CFI, so maybe you could explain how getting associated with them will help. What specific issues need to be addressed? Can anyone help that isn't associated with an organization?

    I think this could be a great discussion. I was disturbed at the obvious discrimination against an organization, so I hope we can get past that and onto the real issues.

    Jim
     
  4. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    I don't see any commoner names such as myself or joe carpet layer.
    Union reps, lobbyists, who do we need to send? I think it helps in the long run, better quality installations, I haven't read it the s-600 yet so I don't know what I don't like about it, if there's self installed carpet like the self leveler I'd be interested, along with self grinding machinery.
    Don't let Incog see this post, he could go on a rant!
     
  5. Nate Hall

    Nate Hall Types With Elbows Senior Member Published

    We wouldn't want any ranting here at TFP...
     
  6. Nate Hall

    Nate Hall Types With Elbows Senior Member Published

    The old rules (CRI 104 & 105) had obvious fingerprints from intetested parties all over them. Specific example: the 1/8" layer of adhesive needed to adhere carpet to the floor. Could an adhesive manfacturer added this? Dollars to doughnuts it wasn't an installer.
    The main issue, as I see it is, this document is for the entire industry. No group should be allowed to "own" it. Not the IICRC, not FITS, not CFI, no group should be allowed to sell tickets that professionals need to oerform our duties. I have discussed this with people who are at the table and my fears about the future of the S600 are not unfounded. The IICRC has plans to take and sell the S600 and related certifications. This is an outrage to any installation certification organization. All of which could be made null and void by the IICRC. I think it's bad but I've been wrong before do it could be good what do I know I'm just an installer.
     
  7. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    Yeah they make good money(iicrc) for their certifications and yearly renewals, I think I was a member one year for carpet cleaner , there were a bunch of certs up to Master , I guess they need to churn the engine to generate more piles.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2014
  8. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain Owner/Founder Administrator

    I happen to know you are NOT just an installer. That being said...

    Having to purchase standards is not a new concept. ANSI has been doing it for decades. IICRC has been involved in developing standards before and they have the experience where many other flooring related organizations do not. It's not just a matter of getting a few people to sit around a table and come to a consensus that they pass along to every other flooring professional. The logistics alone are daunting. Developing standards - rules and regulations - for such a diverse industry is not a cheap date. For all I know, they may even have discussed why they think purchasing standards is better than just giving them away. Just about everything worth learning comes at some cost. And who trains the trainers? Who qualifies them to be teachers? How much would that cost?

    Speaking of which... do we have any information that would indicate that IICRC and only IICRC would be able to do training and certifications? If you can get training & certification as an accountant at a hundred different schools and organizations, why couldn't you get training & certification as an installer, or an inspector, or a sales person at any number of sources? Now THAT would be something worth fighting for the right for.

    I am not alarmed that interested parties would have their hands all over these standards. It's not all about the installer. It's also about the government regulations concerning everything from air quality (you never know how important this is until you gotta walk around with a hose in yer nose), worker safety, public safety and consumer confidence. Then you have the manufacturers who have to pay chemists and engineers and designers to come up with products that follow these legal guidelines, yet is also marketable, easy to maintain, patentable, warrantable and profitable. Then they all have to figure out what, out of all the various ways to install flooring, would be the one method that would ensure it's long life and appearance and how they could be sure that, for those products that require professional installation, the product would be installed by qualified individuals who were trained and certified by even more qualified individuals.

    My point: there's a big picture here and I don't think we always see it all. Some of us may only see the part that makes our life more difficult. Some feel that they have been pushed out of the picture. I think they just need to have a wider view.

    I wish we had access to some who have actually been involved in the S600 meetings. :hmmm:

    Jim
     
  9. mcurrin

    mcurrin Charter Member Published

    I have been assured that while this is being done under the IICRC, it will be owned and presumable instated and controlled by the WFCA. I don't know if that helps much, but it is the largest group of flooring people.

    Mike
     
  10. Daris Mulkin

    Daris Mulkin The One and Only Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    When all of this started I was told that IICRC Has the authority to write and print Ansi standards, they weren't the ones making the standards. There are a whole fleet of installers including CFI, the Union, and others who are making these standards. It is a long process maybe 4 or 5 years because of wording, like never is not to be used. I believe Roland has had some feed into this.

    :old:

    Daris
     
  11. kwfloors

    kwfloors Fuzz on the brain Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    I think the book is going to be out-dated by the time its out.
     
  12. Darren Ramey

    Darren Ramey Charter Member I Support TFP

    I am at a point in my career that I could give a pair of fetid dingo's kidneys if someone wants to rewrite the rule book. I'm going to continue on doing what I do, in the way I see fit. Yes that makes me one of those "I've been doing it that way for 30 years" guys, and I'm OK with that. It's not that I think I am the one true font of carpet installation knowledge left on the planet. It's that I don't trust anyone in this industry to be looking out for installers. New rules means new ways of sticking it to the lowest of the low, IOW those actually on their hands and knees. Honestly these new rules could be the best thing ever for installers, I don't know, because I havent bothered keeping up, this is the level of my distrust.

    How is the manufacturer, an entity with little to no installation experience, supposed to know more about installation that the worst installers in any situation whatsoever? As best as I can tell, they just turn shit out with no thought to how it will install, and cancel the styles they have too many complaints on. For example, a few weeks back I took out a piece with a random color stripes. I was asked how I thought it would seem up before the job was sold, and I said I thought the length seams would look great, but avoid head seams as there is no way to align the random colors. I get to the job, strip and pad, roll out the carpet and WTF? The stripes are running across the width. There is no way anyone that had ever installed carpet, hell, even walked on carpet, would have designed a piece that was impossible to match a pattern on a side seam, but leave it to a mill. I knew we were going to have issues in a fraction of a second. I cut the plastic open, and before the flap hit the ground my heart about stopped. Mills, I wouldn't trust them to tell me which side goes up.

    Fool me once shame on you, fool me for 35+ years...
     
  13. Nate Hall

    Nate Hall Types With Elbows Senior Member Published

    I posted after speaking with Jim Walker about the S600 meetings. Thats who gave me the 4 installer figure because he asked for a show of hands. Installation organizations were involved but they must have sent executive mucky-mucks instead of installers.
    These are installation guidlines. I feel pretty strongly about others in the industry setting the bar for installers to get over.
     
  14. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain Owner/Founder Administrator

    CFI, among others, has been looking out for installers for quite a while now. If you don't like or don't have access to one organization, then there are several more to choose from. But if you refuse, on one hand, to associate with one of those organizations that wants to give you a voice, then you can't expect to get the kind of fair treatment you want the powers that be to hear about.

    Except that those inept manufacturers employ thousands and spend millions on research and development of products that are comprised of chemicals, manufacturing procedures, layers of twisted, coated, woven and tufted textiles that the average installer hasn't got clue-1 about. They don't know if it's a product that can be stretched one way or both, can only be glued with some special adhesive with a special trowel, can be hot-melt seamed, sewn or what to seal the edges with or any of the other factors that the multitude of scientists, weavers and government regulations have had a hand in the manufacture of that carpet. In this day, we can't be so sure that if it quacks like a duck that it is, in fact, a duck. I think it's closed minded to think that only the installer can know how to install. You may have all the hand skills, but you don't have all the other information that you need to know about the goods in your hands to do a proper install.

    And that is why you are an installer and someone else is a designer. It's unfortunate that the manufacturer didn't make it clear to the marketing geniuses, the retailers and the specifiers that this particular product is not supposed to be installed with the stripes matching. It is SUPPOSED to be mismatched because that is the look they were going for. But yeah, then that would be the manufacturer telling the installer how to install. We can't have that.

    In this particular case, it is not your fault you couldn't meet the end user's expectations. But the person responsible for selling the product to the end user should have known and discussed it with the customer. And the person responsible for providing the product to you for installation should have given you the recommended installation instructions and limitations - like that there is no side match because it's not supposed to have one. Then you could have had a better conversation with whoever about how this carpet was designed to be installed.

    If manufacturers want to keep churning out designer's wet dreams, then they need to step up to the table with some guidance on how it must be installed for complete customer satisfaction. I'm sorry if there are installers out there that don't understand the role all segments of this industry need to play, but the information has been available, too often at quite a struggle to obtain, for all of my own 40+ years involved in this industry. I think it's short-sighted to cry foul when they want to sit at the table with everyone else to make the whole process better all the way up the line. You damn bet everyone involved will have an agenda. That's why it takes so long to put something like this together.

    Too bad they didn't ask me to be on the committee. I'd be jumpin' ever'body's shit for thinking they are the cock of the walk. If you want your due, you gotta pay your due. This industry does not revolve around any one segment. Everyone of us involved in it should understand that.

    Jim
     
  15. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    When I first heard of the S600 Standards being written, I researched who was involved and wrote emails to several of the key players, volunteering my time. All I ever got back was one response saying I had no industry standing. Kinda sad but is is what it is!!

    No I won't say who I wrote to but but I subscribe to the motto "Taking names and kicking......". So far I have gotten a couple "real" good kicks in!! I was on the opposite side in a dispute that went legal. Long story but my guy won and the guy with "industry standing" went home. The contractor he was a hired gun for folded like a wet towel.

    Of course he made 10 times more $$ than I did!!
     
  16. Roland Thompson

    Roland Thompson Charter Member Senior Member

    I will just say a few things about this at this time. One, no one own's it yet. There are party's that are trying to take complete control when finished. WFCA does have large sum of money on the table, this does not make it their's, other companies also have money on the table.
    Each commitee has people that are on thier commitee that give input into what is being wrote. I am on two subcommite's.
    All I will add is read it and send in your thought's
     
  17. Nate Hall

    Nate Hall Types With Elbows Senior Member Published

    Thanks Ro' but I'm not as concerned about the content of the document as I am about the companies who are trying to own it. It is an industry wide effort to construct it and it should be freely available to industry participants. The lawyers and other outsiders should pay for access to it.
     
  18. jason c

    jason c Pro Member

    These standards will mean no more to the average installer than the others did. Most installers never knew that there were standards. Most areas don't have any certified installers and most retailers wouldn't pay an extra nickel to get a certified installer. The whole process is a waste of time and money to the average installer and/or retailer.
    All retailers ever ask an installer is two things. Are you available and will you work for what I pay?
    Do you really think that the average installer would ever pay to get a copy of the standards?
     
  19. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain Owner/Founder Administrator

    I'm sure that has been your experience, Jason, but it wasn't mine and it isn't for a great many flooring professionals in the US. Some of us have even become the true independent installers we called ourselves, before we figured out that being in business meant more than just knowing how to install flooring and take shit from those who thought they owned us. Others have discovered that there actually are retailers out there that do care about the qualifications of their installers and reward them by treating them fairly.

    Jim
     
  20. Nate Hall

    Nate Hall Types With Elbows Senior Member Published

    The apathy runneth over! Its no wonder the mills have impossible standards like the ever popular 24 to 48 hour acclimation. No installer ever approved that as a standard. The mills have things like that in the standards to make it easier to hang the installers for not living up to the "standard installation practices". As long as peiple don't care, the installer will keep putting his (or her) head in the noose. With the multiple new backings, changing chemistry of adhesives, and fast track construction all happening at once its only a matter of time until it will be your turn to hang.
     
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