The high price of published standards

Discussion in 'Industry News, Training & Organizations' started by Peter Kodner, Jan 3, 2010.

  1. Peter Kodner

    Peter Kodner Inspector Floors Charter Member Senior Member

    Is it only me struck by the irony that that installation is blamed for the vast majority of the problems (or all of them is you listen to some manufacturers!) and they make the cost of the standards ridiculously expensive? Is there not a vested interest for the industry to have the standards in the hands of the people one of the indispensable cogs of the machinery?

    The CRI standards, as poor as they may be, are at least readily available. How will charging any amount for these standards elevate the level of compliance? Are they also not the responsibility of and in the best interest of manufacturers' to get them in the hands of as many people as possible?

    Personally and from a business standpoint, I will buy the ANSI standards when they come out, but where is the equity in my role as an inspector holding people accountable to what will in all likelihood be a very narrowly distributed publication?

    Another brilliant idea for the floor covering industry...
     
  2. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Re: Copyright

    Well put Peter. I have looked at some of the ANSI Standards prices for the complete standard and WOW are they expensive. For example the one for the pumps (complete standard) costs $2,150.00. Now how many installers, inspectors or dealers can afford to purchase one if it is just half that much?

    ANSI does not give their stuff away.
     
  3. Nick Arrera

    Nick Arrera Resting In Peace

    Re: Copyright

    I wouldn't buy it if i could afford it .
    When you rob me i want to see the Gun. :mad:
    that stuff should be free .
     
  4. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    QUESTION: If ANSI and IICRC establish standards for the installation of commercial and residential carpet and the price for the publication is too expensive for installers is it a active live and judging document?

    Who is going to be the right and wrong judge?

    Inspector - - Can't afford to buy one.

    Dealer - - - vested interest

    Mill Rep. - - - vested interest

    Manufacturer - - - vested interest

    Consumer - - - vested interest

    Does just writing a document make it the rule?

    Does the new standard make installing easier or harder?
     
  5. cproader

    cproader All over T's last nerve Senior Member

    this doesn't even make any sense....If these are standards, then why do ya have to pay fer them. In fact I think we should ferget their standards and write our own.....:yesss:
     
  6. rusty baker

    rusty baker Well-Known Member

    #1 carpet standard= Fuzzy side up!
     
  7. Barry Carlton

    Barry Carlton I Support TFP Senior Member Published

    If they are standards that affect the warranties, wouldn't it make sense to include them with every piece of goods sent out? Also, of the standards are tied to warranties couldn't it be argued legally that if they are not readily and reasonably available they are not enforceable?

    With the law they say ignorance is no excuse....but the statutes/laws are readily available and free. If they were not the laws would not be enforceable. shouldn't the same apply to other standards?
     
  8. Nick Arrera

    Nick Arrera Resting In Peace

    Just somebody else trying to get into your knickers for your milk money.
     
  9. rusty baker

    rusty baker Well-Known Member

    I still do not think that carpet cleaners should have any part in writing INSTALLATION standards. INSTALLATION standards should be written by INSTALLERS.
     
  10. David Hunt

    David Hunt Charter Member Senior Member Published

    No, but writing it and making it available to a public review, followed by majority approval and acceptance by the industry, in the same manner or protocol as similar standards, will.

    Listen folks, it's real and it's coming and those who oppose it after the fact will be viewed by the courts in much the same manner as those who claim taxes are unconstitutional. The fact that somebody can't afford to pay for the documents is no more an excuse than the installer who can't afford a power stretcher or the retailer who can't afford to pay a livable wage.

    Personally I'm more concerned about how we are all going to pay for the mandatory health insurance we will be required 'by law' to carry and maintain. :blink: cough-cough

    Dobby
     
  11. kylenelson

    kylenelson You'll find me on the floor I Support TFP Senior Member

    Well said Dobby. I'm pretty sure these standards will not affect any method of installation that I'm already doing...not really too worried about not being able to read a manual about something I already know how to do properly.
     
  12. Mike Sliwinski

    Mike Sliwinski The Doctor Is In I Support TFP Senior Member

    Re: Copyright

    Hey Tandy, could you second grader proof the statement " For example the one for the PUMPS, costs 2,150.00" ---- Thanks Mike
     
  13. Peter Kodner

    Peter Kodner Inspector Floors Charter Member Senior Member

    It should be pointed out IICRC is not authoring the document, but is basically doing the editing and proofing for publication. This said, I do believe they have a representative on the committee. They will have input but not be in control.
     
  14. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Mike, I do not understand what you are asking. On the dollar amount I googled ANSI, and it came up on that page. I did not dig any deeper. I went back and looked again and did not find the pump price again. If I mis-spoke please feel free to correct me. I will continue to look for where I got the information. Thanks
     
  15. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    I did find a price list for ASTM. The title is Annual Book of ASTM Standards try www.techstreet.com/astm-Sections.tmp (maybe it will work) I still did not find the pump one. The Standard is expensive, and the sub-sections are less expensive. My original point was the publications are not cheep my only point.
     
  16. Mike Sliwinski

    Mike Sliwinski The Doctor Is In I Support TFP Senior Member

    Hi Tandy, thanks for the reply. I'm not familiar with the term pumps being used in the context of text, publications, or words. Is that term specifically used for inspectors ? because I thought maybe the ANSI was selling womens shoes on the side to help pay the bills.:rolleyes: Well, I decided to seek out the answer by going to Dictionary.com | Find the Meanings and Definitions of Words at Dictionary.com and found a definition that fits very well with what you're saying, " The one for the pumps (complete standard) cost 2,150". The definition I found was under the category "Idioms" and goes like this---- To support or promote the operation or improvement of something. Now I get it !! ---- I think ?

    Hey, I'm very proud ! :yesss: I did that all by me self !

    That number 2,150.00 sounds ridiculous to me, but then again I'm not in the inspection business.

    ~Mike Sli.
     
  17. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Mike the example I used was for the ANSI standard for pumps like water pump, oil pumps,and pumps that move liquids. It had nothing to do with inspector or inspection terms.
     
  18. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain TFP Owner/Founder Administrator

    To keep this in relation to the topic, the complete book of standards from ASTM can be purchased here: ASTM International - Annual Book of Standards - Complete Set Ordering Options It's over $9,000.00

    Standard for testing moisture in concrete: ASTM F2170 -09 Standard Test Method for Determining Relative Humidity in Concrete Floor... This can be had for as little as 38.00.

    I don't know how many of the publications from ASTM apply to the floorcovering business, but I assume purchasing all the applicable standards every year (they publish every year) could get quite expensive.

    Jim
    PS: you can search for any ASTM publication from any page of their site: ASTM International - Standards Worldwide
     
  19. Peter Kodner

    Peter Kodner Inspector Floors Charter Member Senior Member

    T: ANSI and ASTM are different outfits with different scopes. I cannot think of an ASTM testing protocol that an installer would have any use for. As an inspector, I need and use quite a few of them though.

    Simply put, ASTM is protocols of performing all nature of tests on the products themselves. ANSI is geared toward proper application and installation of the products.

    The catalog listing all the ANSI standards is available for $25.00. Cracks me up: you pay for the listing to buy more things from them :eek:
     
  20. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain TFP Owner/Founder Administrator

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