The blame game in education: employee or true independent installer

Discussion in 'Industry News, Training & Organizations' started by rusty baker, Oct 11, 2008.

  1. Nick Arrera

    Nick Arrera Resting In Peace

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    Because they give millions in campaign money RG .. :)
     
  2. stullis

    stullis Charter Member Senior Member

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    Hey I agree with you guys on the price fixing scam that is foisted on installers. :cool:

    I also know of installers who got said they got fined by the AG in our state when a customer complained to the AG after calling around her town and being told the same amount ($4/yd) for installing carpet.

    I would have told the AG to F... Off. ;)
     
  3. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    Have them show us the paper works. How could they fine a few and not all. Also check out the fast food joints. All McDonalds in Tulsa have the same price for each product. My guess is I could come to your town and the prices would be the same as in Tulsa.

    Also, what are they going to do if the installer form a union? Do unions set prices?
     
  4. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    No, union discuss prices they have collective bargining and then have signed contracts.
     
  5. stullis

    stullis Charter Member Senior Member

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    As far as I know the ones this customer called were the ones that got fined.

    Next time I talk to one of the installers I'll ask him some more questions about it.
    If I remember correctly he said they were each fined $500.


    Fast food joints are franchises and the pricing is supposedly optional, (not available at all locations) type of fine print t satisfy legalalities.

    Unions also have different rules they must follow.

    Retailers also have different rules but they don't get enforced or get brushed under the table by the government and courts. :(
     
  6. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    Well I give up.:eek: The only thing left is to gripe, complain, and have pitty parties over how bad we are beomg treated by the dealer. I remember something Jim Walker said when he was first starting CFI and that is, "The installer controls the dealers bottom line because he don't get paid until the product is installed." I had thought that over the years that he made a good statement, but I guess we were both wrong. The dealer rules.:help:
     
  7. Jerry Thomas

    Jerry Thomas Charter Member Senior Member

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    Don't give up Tandy, but something to think about .... why is it my job to teach a hack how to better do his job? Are they not my competition? :) I'm not being a smart arse.
     
  8. rusty baker

    rusty baker Well-Known Member

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    There will always be bad installers because there will always be bad retailers.
     
  9. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    Yes they are your competitors, but by helping them raise their prices you raise yours. They are going to be your competitors regardless of what you do so use that to your advantage. Also, they are rookies in doing it right and you are the pro. As a result who is going to get the better paying jobs when both installers are at the same pay rate?

    Notice how car dealers of all different models cluster together, why? Because they feed off of each other and they are all competitors. Don't fear your competitor feed off of them
     
  10. Kman

    Kman Tile Expert I Support TFP Senior Member Published

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    Tandy, by "feed off them", do you mean steal their tools, siphon gas from their work vehicles, and slash their tires? Cause that's what I do. :D

    Actually, you make a good point there. I bet most of them would still undercut us, though. What you have to take into account is that many of them don't care that they're doing a crappy job, they just want to get paid. And in many cases the retailers don't care if their tile installer just licks the back of the tile and slaps it down, or if their carpet installer thinks a power stretcher is a tool used for "male enhancement". Just as long as they can make a profit by selling in volume and get past the one year warranty, they're happy.

    Fortunately, I don't work for the supplier, at least not on regular basis, and I don't have to take any work from them if I don't want to. But I wouldn't work for them at all if they took the attitude toward quality like described above.
     
  11. rusty baker

    rusty baker Well-Known Member

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    In KC I worked for a number of different retailers and a couple of installation companies and none of them were concerned about anything past the one year warranty. Also in Missouri, the retailers only have to guarantee labor on new construction. By law they don't have to warranty labor on redos.
     
  12. Jerry Thomas

    Jerry Thomas Charter Member Senior Member

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    I will freely help any man or woman that wants to be helped.
     
  13. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    Kman I know what you are talking about (not your first sentance:D). A couple of years ago I held a CRI-105 seminar at one of the dealers in your area. We had it early morning where no one had to attend after working hard all day. Had donuts and etc.

    Out of twenty crews that were invited, all of the mexican crews were there (I had printed up CRI-106 in Spanish), and ony one partial gringo crew was there. When I ask some of them if they were staying they all said they did not need the training.

    BTW they did need the donuts, oj, and coffee.:)
     
  14. stullis

    stullis Charter Member Senior Member

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    No the only thing to do is do NOT work for retailers, consumer direct only.

    If the gov did its job those working for retailers would be considered employees.
    If the gov did its job we wouldn't have an illegal alien problem either.

    Walker is a BS artist interested in getting the check for the retailer and from the installer. Maybe he started out idealistic but like most installers the reality of needing to make a living corrupted him into gimmicky corner cutting techniques.
    At least that is what I felt when I attended one of his seminars at Surfaces. :(
     
  15. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    My point is what was said. I only used his name to give credit where credit was due. I wish it had been my original remarks.:) If you know illegals and employees are working turn them in. If no results turn them in again and again until something is done. Remember the squeeky wheel gets the grease. Something has to be done to clean the installation market up and it starts with one "ME".
     
  16. Floorguy

    Floorguy The Living Dead Charter Member Senior Member

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    Tandy, I have tried, It ain't all cut and dry as far as turning them in. It would be a full time job, just lobbying to get something done.
     
  17. Floorguy

    Floorguy The Living Dead Charter Member Senior Member

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    Retail Floorcovering businesses, that sell an installed product.
    Hiring labor to provide the installations, and putting a subcontractor label on the workers
    These "Subcontract" workers, hire workers, and label them "subcontractors. The disease grows.
    This is and has been happening all over the United States. It is a growing plague.
    These Floorcovering Retailers and so called Subcontractors, prey on individuals, with no business education what so ever, especially immigrant workers, here in the southern states.
    Floorcovering Retailers, force the subcontractor to have workman’s comp insurance, that the retailer sells to them. (to put the "subcontractor on their policy) Is that legal? Don't you have to have a License to sell insurance.
    Retainage is kept from workers pay.
    They do this to cut costs and control their workforce.

    ____________________________________________________________________________________________

    The floorcovering industry as a whole, has been plagued with a growing and out of control, employee misclassification virus. Labeling them subcontract labor.
    I am a CFI Certified Floorcovering Installer, that has experience full control of my business in the past, as I didn't know what it meant to be a subcontractor. I was looking for a job, and got this label placed on me.

    This happens all over the United States.

    I got a little education, and realized what the title subcontractor really meant. After being told to wear a company shirt, when I was to show up to work, what I was going to be doing for the day or week. How I were to do it and what with. I worked off a price sheet the retailer had made up for payment to his employees for piece work. I was even told when to wash my vehicle. I had enough abuse and called the retailer on his employment tactics, which I was fired for. I filed an SS-8 form,(Case # E:AUSSC:SS8:458471650) and on October 19th, 2001 it was determined, I was in fact an employee of Aaron Interiors Inc., Plugerville Texas. (Tax payer ID# 74-2772555)I’m sure he is back to his old ways, or if he ever changed. Why would he, if there is NO enforcement of the tax laws and worker misclassification.

    This misclassification, has driven our industry into poverty for the workers. The flooring retailers, dictate every aspect of the subcontractors who are getting 1099's, including a subcontractors wages and worth. They direct how and what to use. Then when the flooring fails, the subcontractor is forced to buy new materials and correct the failure with no payment, while he had no control over it in the first place, if he wants to keep his job. They also use this to underbid, legally run businesses putting legally run businesses out of business, or they too, have to start the subcontractor racket, to suppress wages and cut overhead, so they can be competitive.

    If you can barely pay your bills working 8-12 hours a day 7 days a week. How are employed workers, labeled subcontractor, going to pay their taxes, they are now responsible for. It is a mess, that I don’t know how to fix. It is as corrupt and criminal as slavery.

    That is why I am asking and pleading, how can we put an end to this? How do you audit for this fraudulent practice, to catch even the sly floorcovering retailers that have been doing it for more then 30 years, when the move from employee to subcontract labor started its roots? The floorcovering retailers blatantly misclassifying their installation employees as subcontractors, so they can cheat the Federal Tax system, our States Tax system, our states workman’s compensation requirements, and our unemployment agencies, all to make a bigger profit for them.

    Sure one disgruntled worker can file an SS-8, but there are 5 to 50 more at that one retailer flooring dealer in the same shoes, with a decision, to live in poverty, or not have a job at all. Like the abused and battered wife, who stays with here husband.

    It is not right. It happens all across the United States, as my fellow installers on the internet, have the same facts to tell about their misclassification and the same abuse.

    Only registered businesses, with a DBA and a business tax payers ID number, should be able to receive a 1099. All other, private individuals, should get a W-2. We need a level playing field.
    Audit all 1099’s from every flooring based business, with an extensive form like the SS-8 or something better, for all that received a 1099, to find the flooring retailers that want to violate our tax laws, I must abide by. I estimate 98% of all flooring retailers that provide and installed product, manage their employment workforce in this manner. It would be a field day for all government agencies affected by this unlawful practice.
     
  18. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    I know you are right Floorguy and you like many installers are so frusterated you could pop.

    A thought, CFI and WFCA are well established represenatives of the flooring industry. Therefore perhaps it is time these two (WFCA may be in bed too much with the retailer for them to be of much help) to go directly to state officials and lobby and lobby until the rules are made or enforced to protect the installer.

    Don't say it can't happen. If enough pressure is applied it can and will. We have tried to get change from the bottom up now lets start pounding from the top down.

    JUST DO NOT GIVE UP!
     
  19. rusty baker

    rusty baker Well-Known Member

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    Floorguy, you are 110% right. Stullis you are right in your assessment of the great Kahuna. You will find that most of the installers from the old days don't like him.
     
  20. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    What I would like to say here is, the installation problem we face is so much larger than any one person. Lets not allow personalities enter into our crusade. Floorguy and Stullis have given us a lot to think about.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.