The blame game in education: employee or true independent installer

Discussion in 'Industry News, Training & Organizations' started by rusty baker, Oct 11, 2008.

  1. rusty baker

    rusty baker Well-Known Member

    Because of being picky, I have worked for many retailers thru the years. Almost all of them were only concerned with getting it installed so they could get the rest of the money. They always said, just install it, we'll worry about problems later. I'd say no and be looking for another job. That is why I have been an independent installer for several years. If a job is worth doing, It is worth doing right.
     
  2. Nick Arrera

    Nick Arrera Resting In Peace

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    Same here Rusty .. There was a time years ago when stores wanted only quality installers ..
    But that has become a myth ..
     
  3. stullis

    stullis Charter Member Senior Member

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    Same here.
    recently did some jobs for another retailer, talked into it by another installer who is "making great money" lmao, nothing has changed, same BS and lies. :(
     
  4. Kman

    Kman Tile Expert I Support TFP Senior Member Published

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    We, as a society, have brought this on ourselves. Some of it is due to the public's ignorance of the industry and what it takes to do a good job. A lot of it is pure greed and impatience. What's the name of the company out of Chi-town that offers carpet installed the next day? (Empire, maybe?) Customers take advantage of their next day service because they don't want to wait....not for anything. I understand that there are rare cases where service is needed very quickly, but in most of the cases I've dealt with it is like Rusty said, the builder wants the rest of their money, or the homeowner wants to be walking on new carpet tomorrow.

    I've also dealt with this a few times, and more recently I've let jobs go because of it. It's really no different than for the reasons stated above. Cheap, fast, and get paid right now.
     
  5. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    What are the installers doing about it?
     
  6. Floorguy

    Floorguy The Living Dead Charter Member Senior Member

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    I had a retailer tell me not to pole stretch any rental properties, apartments and duplexes, as he would get the profit for the restretch. He had them convinced, that all carpets wrinkle and a restretching was normal.

    I know you guys are saying... WTF. But this is very true.
     
  7. Nick Arrera

    Nick Arrera Resting In Peace

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    That don't surprise me ..
     
  8. Kman

    Kman Tile Expert I Support TFP Senior Member Published

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    Some of us are turning down the jobs, but as long as there's a hack to come in there and slap it down, it'll keep happening.

    Still, I try to warn the homeowner/builder as sternly as possible about the pitfalls of a poor installation, sometimes they listen, sometimes they don't. While I don't wish for anybody to have work on their home that eventually has to be torn out, I can't help but have that "I told you so" look on my face when it does fall apart like I predicted.
     
  9. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    I got blackballed several times because I would not "Git er done" "Git the check".

    Most I have seen recently, last couple years since I quit installing, are just putting it in and hoping for the best. My buddy calls them "Hail Mary" installers, let er fly and pray for the best.

    It won't change till consumers demand AND are willing to pay for top quality installs.

    Quite frankly, I believe a three tier system would work. You know like Meineke Muffler. good, better, best. Tier one just get it in for the apts. and the like. Tier two sealed seams and powered for mid grade. Tier three all the bells and whistles with take up, clean up, haul away and move your furniture. Oh sorry HD already sells tier three to the consumer and then pays the installer $3.25 for all of it.:shifty:
     
  10. Nick Arrera

    Nick Arrera Resting In Peace

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    Had a home owner call me last week to install 600' of tiger wood he was going to purchase from LL , and just wanted me to do the install .. i warned him , and even offered to get him the wood at my cost .. Well he got it from LL so i told him to keep my number as i also do inspections .. Seems like everybody wants to go to the ford dealer and drive out in a caddy ..
     
  11. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    Have we ever gone to the hacks and have a heart to heart talk (I don't mean yelling, and cussing). They probably have no idea how stupid they are. Talk pricing, cost of supplies and charge backs. We know talking to the dealers don't work so lets try something different.
     
  12. Floorguy

    Floorguy The Living Dead Charter Member Senior Member

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    When I was mislabelled as a subcontractor, the retailer would go off the deep end, if I tried to educate the uneducated about some simple business skills. It seems keeping them dumb, helped his bottom line.

    He sure wanted me to teach them everything I knew, skill wise... so he could use them to undercut me out of the picture.
     
  13. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    I did that with a couple of crews at the last place I contracted from. A very nice young crew. Soaked up information like a sponge, then came back a couple of weeks later and said "We just had a new baby, I had to buy a better truck, my helper wants a raise" so I can't do all the things I should be doing. He knew what he should be doing, but he felt he had to pump in 150-200 yds a day to stay ahead of the $ game.

    Then the installation co-ordinator had a meeting with everyone, his comment was we are doing fine as long as we get past the one year warranty. With that attitude from the top down it is not going to get better.

    By the way I don't do any inspections for them either, they know I would have to comment on the installation!:p
     
  14. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    I know of no rule that you have to have dealer permission to talk to anyone. In fact I think it would be good if they know good installers are talking to their hacks and educating them to pricing and business practices.

    Gentlemen you just cannot keep griping and complaining to change anything. You gotta do something because it will get no better until we do.
     
  15. Floorguy

    Floorguy The Living Dead Charter Member Senior Member

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule




    The retailers make the rules as they go. If it hurts their controllability, they will do something about it.

    In my case it would be no work for weeks, till he though he taught me a lesson, or there were so many warranty claims he had to call me to go fix it all. Basically trying to starve me out. He would throw a bitch if he caught wind I was working for another retailer for a single job, or working as side work, so to speak, for a friend or relative.
     
  16. Jerry Thomas

    Jerry Thomas Charter Member Senior Member

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    I was standing at the counter at a flooring distributor and next to me were two installers joking around with a Shaw rep. I overheard everything..... they were picking up a Shaw laminate order and were going to be installing it that same day. The rep never suggested that might be a bad idea .... he just kept joking around about them making some easy money.

    A few months later i had problem with that same laminate. The butt joints would not go together right. When i did get them together there was a raised edge at every butt joint. The distributor gave me the reps cell phone number. When I called I explained what I was running into and before I could finish that sentence he interrupted me and said ..... "did you acclimate it?.... it's got to sit for 48 hours"...

    That just flew all over me ...
     
  17. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    You say you are independent, but a dealer dictates your business. If you educate the hacks what are they going to do?:confused:

    BTW if you are doing cold call selling it takes an average of 10 calls for each sale, so talking to hacks one time will yeild no results.
     
  18. stullis

    stullis Charter Member Senior Member

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule


    Talk pricing and you are price fixing. :eek:

    Talk pricing and the "hacks" don't believe you can charge that much.

    "I wouldn't have any work if I charged as much as you" type comments from them after me telling them I'm busy... DUH, sure glad I'm not working???
     
  19. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    Check out the definations of Price Fixing. I do not see where talking about pricing is a violation of the law.

    Show them your check stub.
     
  20. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Re: Moisture readings and staying on schedule

    If you are a TRUE contractor you MUST talk pricing before you start any job. Price fixing is when a number of entities get together and agree to bid all jobs at a fixed price.

    If you want to talk price fixing, that is exactly what retailers do.

    The threat of price fixing is BS that retailers like to tell installers that they can't do.

    My question is, why is it not price fixing when gas at BP is 3.79 and the same at Speedway, Marathon, and Shell?
     

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