Shaw commercial sheet vinyl

Discussion in 'Vinyl & Rubber Flooring Sales and Installations' started by Barry Carlton, Jun 20, 2019.

  1. Barry Carlton

    Barry Carlton I Support TFP Senior Member Published

    First time installing this material. Shaw rep insists that a general multipurpose adhesive is fine. Shaw calls for 4100 which is an acrylic not a latex. Should I have any worries going forward?? The retailer bought a Parabond latex for the installation.
     
  2. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Barry I am not sure what your vinyl is We have thrown away latex glues years ago as the vinyl could turn yellow with the glue going slimy Rubber in the latex glue with these new backings do not like each other
    I lifted some tiles the other day and found this mess. There was another layer of vinyl over the tiles The layer had lifted and filled the loose tiles around the walls with a matrix product which was dry making me believe the concrete slab was dry when the tiles were laid orginally
     

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  3. Chris 45

    Chris 45 Director of P.R. on some deserted island. I Support TFP

    It says you have to use one of their 2 adhesive selections to receive the 10 year warranty. That's your ammo right there to get the correct adhesive. That and I’d be afraid of multipurpose adhesive possibly reacting and bubbling on ya.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Barry this what I picked up
    premium high strength (non-staining) acrylic adhesive,
    which I believe a latex glue could cause staining

    5.ADHESIVESPhiladelphia Commercial recommends the use of Shaw 4100 Adhesive, S150 Universal Aerosol Adhesive or equivalent.SHAW 4100–solventfree resilient sheet, plank and tile adhesive.Shaw 4100 solvent free adhesive is an installer friendly,premium high strength (non-staining) acrylic adhesive, designed to permanently install Philadelphia Commercial resilient.SHAW 4100 may be used on all grades of concrete on, above or below grade in the absence of excess moisture, as well assuspended approved wood floors. SHAW 4100 may also be used for installing over existing, non-cushioned resilient flooringthat has been prepared according to manufacturer’s recommended methods.SHAW 4100 is non-flammable, water (90%RH) and alkali (10 pH) resistant andfreeze-thaw stable. SHAW 4100 has excellent resistance to plasticizer migration and setsto a tough permanent bond. Zero (calculated) VOC’s. CRI Green Label Plus Approved. SHAW 4100 must be used toreceive Philadelphia Commercial’s exclusive 10 year underbed warranty
     
  5. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti Senior Member

    Jon, How are you guys removing the acrylic adhesive? It stays tacky during removal and sticks back down. Then residue?
     
  6. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Mike most Diamond grind the glue off then Feather Finish or in my case I put a layer of Matrix over the old glue as at my age I am not buying a grinder
    In that photo I just went over the slimy glue, which is not a normal situation with a wet rag rinsing out in the sink to get rid of the glue then put a coat of matrix over the slab. I do not like Feather Finish as it seems to suck the moisture out of the glue
     
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  7. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti Senior Member

    Barry, going over the adhesive selection I realize that the spray system has so many advantages over the trowel method that it is what takes priority over your other question. Do you realize the time savings and profitability? Do we do this to make money or just something to pass time?
     
  8. kylenelson

    kylenelson You'll find me on the floor I Support TFP Senior Member

    I wouldn’t dream of spraying unless it was mandatory. Troweling puts down an even layer and is your last defense against debris. So many advantages to running a trowel vs a roller or spraying
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  9. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti Senior Member

    Yeah, I agree with that but it sounds good. Nothing that a hammer can’t fix. I’d like to see someone doing that procedure and all the precautions that goes with it.
     
  10. kylenelson

    kylenelson You'll find me on the floor I Support TFP Senior Member

    Also, has anyone studied how much adhesive is airborne and ingested when sprayed?
     
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  11. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti Senior Member

    Respirator definitely. I think we discussed the spray method a few years ago. Quicker wheel traffic and welding I think I’d try to implement it, keeping all the requirements in place of the trowel method, but using the system for future projects. Then when proficient it will save everyone time, using as a sales tactic, possibly leaping over others without the option. So basically it’s an option in the toolbag.

    I think of jobs in the future and how to increase productivity while trying different methods on current jobs.
     
  12. kylenelson

    kylenelson You'll find me on the floor I Support TFP Senior Member

    I’m guessing if guys like incognito aren’t using it, it’s probably not more efficient. But who knows, I’m always open to trying to maximize profit
     
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  13. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti Senior Member

    You would be guessing wrong I’m guessing. Larger union shops are inefficient. They are not inclined for efficiency, they rely on labor to gain advantage. I worked for Union employers, drove an old Isuzu flatbed to North Carolina that did about 40 mph on interstate, the grinders for terrazzo were
    From the 50’s, suppose it was more of the owner being cheap but ?

    This method is similar to speedset thinset for tile or any other rapid method, grouted and in service in 4 hours. In the military I went through a RRR. Rapid runway repair(obviously because bombs dropped on runway planes need to get back up) no time for concrete to cure, oh military is slow on some things as well.

    For a small job immediate weld prevents from coming back the next day.

    I’d like to see this system and all costs associated. If on, YouTube I think upped commercials by 75% seems like, I tried to watch a salvage/damaged Ferrari auction guy and must’ve seen 15 commercials. Didn’t watch the rest, who cares? I’m not being forced to watch commercials unless I like em.

    Another thing, Barry is an experienced pro, he knows all the nuances and where to employ method.

    And another, waiting for adhesive to flash off? Or minimizing wait time, what’s that worth?

    Waiting for someone to fall in adhesive?

    Dead money per hour is not the way to “operate”

    If working in a hospital I’d try to get this in my credentials. Say a removal and someone on staff stops you from proceeding. You’re at their mercy, they now have control of you. I’ve worked in hospitals doing flooring, reluctantly!

    Certified Healthcare Remediator Technician & Supervisor
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
  14. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    **************************
    I don't like being the trial baloon for the manufacturer or the shop to save a few bucks on glue. I want to deal with tried and true materials and installation procedures.

    Isn't that hard enough with the HORRIBLE industry standard site conditions? We don't need another unknown variable in the equation.
     
  15. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti Senior Member

  16. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    ****************************
    I didn't have access to the kind of scientific research my son has. All I can tell you is that I went home witn my nostrils and forearm hair sticky and nasty from that overspray----------you know, the one that they SAY doesn't exist.

    GUARANTEE they wont be using that cheapo, garbagio solution on serious commercial projects with OSHA and the insurance geeks on full alert. It would coat $25 in safety precautions for every dollar saved on labor from trowelling as opposed to spraying.

    I always say you don't SAVE MONEY on glue and that applies to application methods as well as, if not moreso than the quality/price of product.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. Steve Olson

    Steve Olson Hardwood/Laminate Guru Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Spray adhesive? Nope, Nada, No, No, No. The commercial work I do, 3-4 months out of the year won't even let me sweep the floor, let alone spray adhesive, ( with all its now airborne propellants, and adhesive odor being vaporized in to the air). Air sensors, also HVAC sucking it up and spewing it else where... I have to work inside containment, with dual HEPA filters at both ends, and still they bitch and moan. Not to mention, when you spray, its like when you dip and roll, or pour and roll. How evenly is it being distributed? Not at all an even coat. As mentioned, I trowel, THEN roll, as spec'd. I like to get as close to spec as I can. I know how much is too much and how much is too little: the way to just right, is to use the proper trowel, and then roll, is so stated in the spec's. Sorry Barry, didn't mean to go into rant mode, just home from vacation, and I saw this post...
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. Barry Carlton

    Barry Carlton I Support TFP Senior Member Published

    No Worries. I don't think anyone really read the original question.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  19. Steve Olson

    Steve Olson Hardwood/Laminate Guru Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    I did. I want to use the glued spec'd, but when I don't, its understood that I'm not covering glue failures. Most of what I work with commercially is TeknoFlor, and the Shannon glue they spec, but I have used a blue adhesive we stock, name not coming to mind right now, and it works fine too. If there was a problem related to its usage, I think I would of seen it by now, but, regardless, it would be taken care of, and not at my expense. When I hear acrylic, I think of those adhesives that resemble cove base adhesive; wet set, I prefer the pressure sensitive myself.
     
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