Discussion in 'Carpet Sales and Installations' started by Don Monfils, Dec 28, 2007.

  1. Don Monfils

    Don Monfils PRO CARPET Charter Member

    I got a call today on a job I did almost 2 years ago. Its a piece of cut pile luxury bac.
    It is only loose in one area about a 16" circle. The rest still feels tight.
    There is a big wood stove that was wheeled into the room, with what I don't know.
    I can probably count on one hand how many call backs I have had for re stretching in nearly 20 years.The installation warranty is just 1 year through the store but, I told the customer If they could empty the room of furniture, I would re stretch the carpet at no charge.
    After leaving the job I was thinking the area felt extremely loose in that one small area that I 'm thinking the carpet could be delaminated in that area.
    Anyone ever see this backing delaminate?
    Any problems with wrinkling?:confused:
  2. Lo Down

    Lo Down Old as dirt member Charter Member Senior Member

    Could some kind of cleaner be the cause?
    16" is about the size of a spill of some kind, and sometimes homowners are known to use so weird concoctions or use excessive amounts of cleaners........ which could be enough to damage the backing.
    That certainly was not your problem if it was still feeling tight everywhere.
  3. Daris Mulkin

    Daris Mulkin The One and Only Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Did you kind of smell the area? I'd bet it was some kind of accellerant to start the stove with like charcoal liter.
    Paint thinner will cause the same thing.
    When you restretch I would definitely look at the back to see. See if it feels oily.

  4. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Sounds like they used Spotshot to clean a spot. It makes the backing as limber as a dish rag.
  5. Taurus Flooring

    Taurus Flooring Over 30yrs Experience

    It has to be remembered that the backing is made of plastic and all kinds of things can distort it. Even a heater sitting on one spot for too long could damage it. Only way you would have a chance to fix it most likely, is by inserting a new piece. I personally have never been a fan of the action backs. To get an idea of what happens when you stretch it, take a plastic grocery bag ( made of the same plastic as the backing) and pull it between your hands. Notice how little it returns to its original state when you release it. :rolleyes:
  6. Lo Down

    Lo Down Old as dirt member Charter Member Senior Member

    You've never released one of my carpets from the tack strip.:D
  7. Roland Thompson

    Roland Thompson Charter Member Senior Member

    Luxury Bac is not the same as soft bac. Soft bac is the third backing on Shaws carpet , you have primary and then secondary ( Poly or we call action back ) then the soft bac go's on. Luxury bac is the secondary backing. I would agree that it sounds more like something was spilled on it or from cleaning it . If you could pull it back to that area you will be able to tell buy looking at the backing. The backing never lies.

  8. Peter Kodner

    Peter Kodner Inspector Floors Charter Member Senior Member

    Taurus, correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand shopping bags are made from polyethylene not polypropylene. Although similar, they are different materials.
  9. rusty baker

    rusty baker Well-Known Member

    This may be way out there, but if the floor has been patched in that area with metal, or if there is no insulation under that part of the floor the wood stove will condense moisture in that area. Wood stoves create a lot of moisture.
  10. Harry Myers

    Harry Myers Charter Member

    Windows vistas sucks
  11. Harry Myers

    Harry Myers Charter Member

    what is the difference between PET and olefin. Simple answer
  12. Jerry Thomas

    Jerry Thomas Charter Member Senior Member

    I did not know that Rusty. I knew non-vented gas logs did. :hmmm::confused:
  13. Chris Mha

    Chris Mha Charter Member Senior Member

    I don't believe that wood stoves create moisture. Wood stoves and fireplaces create a very dry heat.
  14. Peter Kodner

    Peter Kodner Inspector Floors Charter Member Senior Member

    Actually water (water vapor) is a byproduct of all types of combustion. Unvented gas log units exacerbate the condition as it is not drawn up a flue.

    Another aspect is the area in the immediate vicinity of the fireplace, even a vented one, will be significantly warmer which will draw the moisture in the room to it. I have never quantified it, but I would have to believe your RH by the fireplace will be higher than at the other areas of the room (warm air holds more moisture than cold air). I'll do some experimenting in my house- be a great reason to lit a fire and snuggle with my sweetie :D

    Harry, I'm smelling some slyness in your question. Are you using the generic term olefin or do your specifically mean polypropylene, which is used for carpet fiber? Polyethylene is an olefin too. Our industry has a tendency to use olefin when polypropylene is the fiber. All polypropylenes are olefins, but not all olefins are polypropylenes.

    I suppose the easy answer is: "Does it matter? Neither one makes a very good carpet fiber." :D
  15. rusty baker

    rusty baker Well-Known Member

    We heated exclusively with a wood stove for 5 years. Wood heat puts out a lot of mosture. Although you don't want to heat with green wood ,rcompletely dry wood burns too fast. A good wood to heat with. like honey locust, makes the air very humid. not dry ike a gas furnace.,
  16. Daris Mulkin

    Daris Mulkin The One and Only Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    I'd say it is kind of like splitting hairs of which I'm told red ones are finer.
    They all start with poly don't they? I'd kind of think that makes them brothers and sisters but I'm not a chemist either. Come to think of it I knew a Polly once and she was a redhead too.

  17. Floorguy

    Floorguy The Living Dead Charter Member Senior Member

    When I burn I fire here, my eyes dry out and my lips start to crack and that is from about 4 hours of burning a fire in the fireplace.
  18. mcurrin

    mcurrin Charter Member Published

    PET is polyester, olefin is polypropelene. Different polymer chains, different uses. for instance the plastic coke bottle that is clear is polyester. The white bleach bottle is polypropelene. PET generally is recycled soft drink bottles, and we were told that it being food grade polyester meant better performance as carpet fibers. Not so polyester is polyester. I once asked a rep telling me this if that were the case why did not the polyester fiber produceres just reformulate the virgin polyester to the food grade type. He looked very confused but did not answer.

  19. Peter Kodner

    Peter Kodner Inspector Floors Charter Member Senior Member

    PET and PTT are both polyester. The Sarona fiber is a PTT, but still a polyester regardless of how it is marketed. Has anyone inspected or seen any of these PTT (Shell/BASF are also using this branded as Cordura) that has been in use for any length of time? I'm very curious how these products are holding up to marketing hype in the real world.

    Mike, you are incorrect in that all olefins are NOT polypropylene, but ALL polypropylenes are olefins. A part of the Kosa definition: Olefin: "... any long chain synthetic polymer composed of at least 85% ethylene, propylene or other olefin unit...". The word olefin should not be interchanged with polypropylene. Polyethylene is also extruded into fiber but is not used for carpet yarn systems.

    As I refer to Kosa fairly regularly, I thought it would be good to post a picture of it. It is one of the reference books I use with some frequency and recommend it to anyone who wants some technical data on textiles. Sorry about the glare :cool: - I used the flash to take the shot :eek:

    Attached Files:

  20. Peter Kodner

    Peter Kodner Inspector Floors Charter Member Senior Member

    An afterthought: I googled "recycling symbols" and found this site. I think it should clarify some of the previous posts about the content of various products that are recycled into secondary products, i.e. open loop recycling.

    I have an acute interest in this having been the first carpet reclamation site in Chicago through a DuPont program in the late 80s. I always found it very interesting corporate America was very pleased to wear a green badge as long as it didn;t add any cost to the flooring project :rolleyes: We had several containers at our workroom where all carpet we took up was placed. A pain to return it form sites, particularity on medium sized jobs. If the job was large enough, we would drop boxes on sites. I found it was actually cheaper to recycle on jobs too small for a roll off box but added cost on larger jobs. We had signed an agreement with DuPont so we did recycle every carpet job where we had a take up.

    At the stage we when we were in this program, all carpet reclamation projects were open loop programs, meaning the materials were re manufactured into products other than carpet. Lots of black plastic under hood parts came out of Detroit int hose days. Fan shrouds and the like. Others, like Interface and C&A were making snow fence slats, bird houses and parking lots bumpers.

    Type 6 nylon is actually far more readily re-polymerized than 6,6 but at the time, this was not economically feasible- oil was too cheap. It is encouraging to see the progress made in our industry on these endeavors with virtually every mill offering post consumer fiber content for new products. The technology to close the loop on carpet recycling is finally being realized and it makes all of us better stewards for the environment.

    Throw some of this info to those specifiers who are insisting bamboo is such a green product! :p

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