Prep over Pine-Sol cleaned concrete?

Discussion in 'Floor Preparation' started by Rob Ahlgrim, Dec 7, 2017.

  1. Rob Ahlgrim

    Rob Ahlgrim Pro Member

    Good morning.
    I have an installer who needs to prep a concrete subfloor that was recently abated, and it appears (smells) like the abatement contractor used Pine-Sol to clean the residue off the concrete. Has anyone ever run into this, and can Ardex be applied to skimcoat over concrete cleaned in such a way so as not to affect the bonding?
    Forbo tiles are being installed in these areas when prep is completed.
    Any help would be appreciated, as 20+yrs I have never run into this situation, and nothing online from Pine-Sol is helpful.
    Thanks.
     
  2. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain Owner/Founder Administrator

    Depends where the cleaner was purchased. The original Pine-Sol Brand Cleaner formulation lists 8–12% pine oil, 3-7% alkyl alcohol ethoxylates, 1-5% sodium petroleum sulfonate and 1-5% isopropyl alcohol. Clorox stopped using pine oil in Pine-Sol around 2006, but a lot of complaints about the new formulation and requests for the old prompted them to offer Pine-Sol with pine oil through select online retailers.

    If they used a product with pine oil in it, I would think that could cause some bonding issues. I don't know what you could use to clean that out.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  3. Rob Ahlgrim

    Rob Ahlgrim Pro Member

    My installer is doing a test area, so we shall see how that turns out. Might be an issue on the abatement company to resolve. I don't believe they should be using that product, ESPECIALLY if it contains pine oils.
     
  4. epoxyman

    epoxyman Pro Member

    On all the stuff I have seen removed they used a orange type cleaner/ degreaser.
    Then we shotblast and grind the edges
     
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    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    Water drops on slab to see if will absorb. That will determine the porosity of slab.

    They probably used an encapsulator today lock fibers in.

    How many ft? What’s the risk level? I remove tile for a livin so I don’t mind a little breaking point at the slab.
     
  6. Chris 45

    Chris 45 Director of P.R. on some deserted island. I Support TFP

    The orange cleaner that the abatement companies use is a bond breaker. Especially if there are cold joints or any divots where it could collect more heavily than just left over residue. If it is a sizeable area, I’d have the abatement company clean their residue more thoroughly. Otherwise I’d think a quick mopping of the floor and a shop vac dry should improve things greatly.
     
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  7. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    The "orange peel" residue is at least water soluable. I honestly have no idea about what Jim was mentioning with pine oil but it sure sounds BAD for patch and adhesive. If it were MY home or business I'd want that BS steam cleaned off til the slab had virtually zero odor.

    We will deal with CHEMICAL abatement under the stipulation that the customer understands there's certainly a possibility of bonding issues. Usually they just fail to rinse thoroughly so we do it. Then everything would get floated with Ardex FF-------NOT really a skim because a basic skim coat goes down to zero where the slab is in fine shape. The floating version of a skim coat requires you leave a substantial layer of patch down to prevent anything left on the surface from reacting to the adhesive or backing of the floorcovering. It's a good idea to use the P-51 primer as well. When there are unacceptable levels of residual BS you can generally observe the P-51 primer acting stupid unusual. Can't hardly explain it but if you saw it you'd know what I was talking about.

    RINSE with piping hot water and see if the smell goes away. Forbo isn't going to honor any warranty after a chemical abatement from what I understand of their policy. I don't think any flooring, patch otr adhesive manufacturer accepts CHEMICAL abatement for a subsequent flooring application.

    They all want you to shot blast or grind 100% of the existing adhesive/patch/smegma off the slab so there's..........

    NOTHING but clean concrete.

    It only makes sense from their perspective. How are they going to warranty crap that's being burried under their product?
    DSCF6023.JPG
     
  8. Raines Flooring

    Raines Flooring Installations Express

    Grinding or shotblasting is always best, but I use XL Brand TriSeal if customers don't want to pay for a new surface. I have never had any callbacks when used properly.
     
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  9. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    Your Avatar, those are brick for seams? That’s just F’d up. I thought Incognito only had to do that BS. I’d have Union Bricklayers do that!
     
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    • Funny Funny x 1
  10. Commercial Floor Rep

    Commercial Floor Rep I Support TFP Published

    You can use a rinse of TSP (Tri-Sodium Phosphate) to break down any remaining oil from the pine-sol residue. Follow that with 2 good rinses of clean hot water. That will remove any remaining residual left behind. If you don't want to do this by hand with mops, rent an auto-scrubber and use a #53 3M brush attachment with it. That will help get anything up out of the pores better than a traditional "scrubby" pad.

    If you don't want to mix your own TSP, Sentinel makes a premix but it's crazy expensive compared to a box of TSP. It's not hard to mix just follow the directions on the box.

    Let everything dry good once you're done and you should be all set.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  11. Raines Flooring

    Raines Flooring Installations Express

    Yeah, Mondo weight room floors call for bricking the seams. Me and my brother deal with it. Sucks but does give you a really good workout!
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  12. Rob Ahlgrim

    Rob Ahlgrim Pro Member

    My avatar is just a reimagining of an MC Escher painting representing a Moebius, or infinity symbol. No bricks involved.
     
  13. Rob Ahlgrim

    Rob Ahlgrim Pro Member

    Found out Chemsafe 100 is what the abatement company ha been using. Water and detergent soluble, easy for cleanup. Product can be installed once cleaned and dried completely.
    So far, test areas are not showing anything thru Ardex FF. Hopefully a test area of tile installation will bond and have no release issues.
     
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