newly installed LVT squares squeak

Discussion in 'Vinyl Flooring Q&A' started by DAB, Oct 18, 2017.

  1. DAB

    DAB Member

    So the owner was out today and in a nutshell:
    1) he says that all floating floors squeak and make noise so the noises from our LVT is normal for a floating floor. (Refer to above video) and the new squeaks that are developing are normal.
    2)He feels the carpet is squeaking due to vapor proof padding and feels we really have no issues to be concerned with the floor and it was stretched correctly. We are developing new squeaks daily (sounds like plastic grocery bags under the carpet)
    3). He will send someone out to fix the trim, transition, chipped marble fireplace, grout on the wall (which he claims is water soluble and washes off easily). " Some damage to the woodwork is normal, this isn't excessive and is all easily fixable. "
    4) He feels our subfloor had squeaks previously (it did in three spots and I will/did gladly own up to all three of them) and feels most of the creaking is due to the subfloor.
    5) The soft spots are normal in a floating floor and the grout is made for the movement and it won't cause it to breakdown.
    6) He will take up several pieces of vinyl and take it to have it analyzed to prove it was installed correctly.
    7) Didn't know the Shaw flooring rep had said the whole LVT floor needed to come up and will gladly call him. The store manager was at my house during that conversation and the rep repeated it to my husband on the phone. Surprised and frustrated he didn't make that call prior to coming out.
    8)He will contact the Shaw rep and arrange a third party inspector.
    9) Feels I am unreasonable for expecting a refund.

    Thoughts? And how independent are these third party folks? Do I need a fourth party guy here at the same time?

    I am really trying to be open minded here but this has been in a nightmare install
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
  2. Mark Brown

    Mark Brown On The Surface Flooring I Support TFP

    My good friend, you are the newest recipient of what we in the industry call the run around. Every one of those statements you say were made to you is a lie. Flat out lie. Now, I cannot say I agree with the attitude that the store owner took but at least it is common. Better to try to lie your way put of a problem then to own up to it... right?
    Problem is your are clearly not stupid....
    So, your best hope is the shaw guy. Hopefully you can be in direct contact with them. Reps are very good at forcing the hand of suppliers that sell their product and if not that then working with customers. This is at least my experience. You are going to have a fight by the sounds of things. Personally I would not let them "remedy" anything in your house without a complete admission of failure and compensation. That's the jaded angry installer in me that says things should be right.

    I would assume that any inspection done would be truly independent however, in a case like this I would strongly advise you to get your own. You truly are your best advocate and not all inspectors are competent. Stick with this, don't give up. Ask away on the forum and know that someplace deep down , you deserve a quality installation :)
     
  3. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    What are the causes of Hardwood Flooring Squeaks?

    Not vinyl, but here’s what Elmer posted, about 6 posts down, coincidently same manufacturer(basically because it’s an empire!)

    I watched the first video again and it makes me mad, similar to a contract I was told a certain profession can always find a way out. I would call and get some advice from LM services? They could be on their side, I’m suspicious like that, but decipher their suggestions.

    https://lgmandassociates.com/
     
  4. DAB

    DAB Member

    "So, your best hope is the shaw guy. Hopefully you can be in direct contact with them."

    ****My husband has been in touch with the Shaw guy and Mr Shaw stated LVT needs to be removed. Mr Owner said Shaw Territory Rep was in sales so knows nothing about installed floors.
    ****So there is hope that the Shaw guy will be fair minded in this and not automatically side with the store that sells their product? The Shaw rep offered to find us one but how do I know Mr Shaw Rep and Mr Independent aren't buds with the store owner?

    I would assume that any inspection done would be truly independent however, in a case like this I would strongly advise you to get your own.
    ****How do I find a "truly independent inspector"? Do they have to be someone that sells Shaw? Do I have them here at the same time as the Shaw third party inspector? Would appreciate advice as to how to go about this.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
  5. Mark Brown

    Mark Brown On The Surface Flooring I Support TFP

    I am much more familiar with my territory than yours but there are associations of floor covering. Here in British Columbia if I wanted an inspection done I would contact the BCFCA which is our provincial floor covering association, ask them to recommend an inspector in my area and go from there. Your inspector does not have to be associals with shaw but let's assume they are. No one who represents a product is going to lie to you and say their is nothing wrong with an install when a client is having issues because the only other oprion is the product. I have seen it swing the other way often, but never like that.

    As for the sales rep not knowing anthing about installs, I would love to agree because usually they don't. At least that is to say they don't know how to install. What they do know is when things are done improperly and it isn't their products fault. Such as your case.

    If Mr shaw says it is coming out, believe me it is coming out. Now it is a matter of who is paying.
     
  6. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    • Agree Agree x 2
  7. Mark Brown

    Mark Brown On The Surface Flooring I Support TFP

    Thanks Mike. See I knew someone would have the knowing :)
     
  8. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    Attached Files:

  9. DAB

    DAB Member

    And what value does third party inspector add? Mr Owner can decide to disagree with the findings.


    And a heartfelt thank you to everyone for the help and guidance with all this.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    It should be last resort, expert witness. 350-500$? Leverage.
     
  11. Mark Brown

    Mark Brown On The Surface Flooring I Support TFP

    There comes a point where if you cannot make convincing arguments to whomever preformed the work then a judge will have to. That is the long and short of it. There are standards in this industry and business in general. They are not complicated to prove in a court of law. Let us hope it never comes to that but there is a line to be drawn for certain. You are not wrong, not about any of it. I would tell you of you are crazy, why not right, I have nothing to lose. You have every thing going for you in this case. No inspector in their right mind would disagree. Keep your chin up.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. DAB

    DAB Member

    So, Mr Owner was out a week ago today (Tuesday). He was going out of town from Thursday till today yesterday and assured us he was going to be contacting our area Shaw rep to help us line up a third party inspection. We haven't hear anything back yet. We did take it upon ourselves to call the Shaw rep yesterday and today to follow up and haven't heard back from him either. I am hoping the Shaw rep is out of town but we are wondering what our next step is if we don't hear back from the Shaw rep. I am assuming Mr Owner is just ignoring us in hopes we will go away. Do we contact a NICFI inspector on our own I assume? And if the inspector sees the same issues we are seeing I am assuming we contact the owner and if need be line up an attorney? Don't mean to sound paranoid but can the owner put pressure on the Shaw rep to ignore our call? The owner also owns a large disaster remediation company as well.
     
  13. Mark Brown

    Mark Brown On The Surface Flooring I Support TFP

    Anything is possible. I would like to doubt they are in cahoots but who knows. Let's assume just for the sake of argument they are, your own inspector is for now and ever your best argument. Then all the cards are on the table. I would even have an inspection done and not tell anyone if they are dragging their heels. Like I said before, you are always going to be your best advocate and acting as of you are alone on it might just be the best course of action. It i's almost time for the gloves to come off.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    I’ve not heard many good things about damage restoration companies doing flooring. One time my fil caught the kitchen on fire frying French fries, they hacked the new kitchen and he’s not allowed to make fries anymore.

    Two recent homeowners/customers fired water damage restoration companies, they just don’t have the equipment or the contractors with level of experience needed.

    I’d call retailer one more time and ask him what lawyers he uses so you can hire your own.
     
  15. Ahhh welcome to the wonderful world of flooring claims. A place I dwell in way more than I like to.

    If hiring the inspector is not going to create an uncomfortable financial burden for you, then I would proceed with hiring one. This will give you far more leverage on the dealer and the manufacturer than you currently have. It shows them you are serious about resolving the issue, you're in it for the long haul and that you have someone on your side who's not going to "soften" reality but give you straight honest answers that they might not want you to know.

    To answer your question about the rep - follow the money. Who is buying from whom? The dealer is buying from the rep - that's his long term customer. You're buying from the dealer and while you're important to him for this sale - he ultimately doesn't rely on you're patronage to continue to run his business. So who is it easier to say no to for the Shaw rep - you who will purchase a floor once maybe twice in his career or the dealer who buys from him everyday and who he relies upon for his paycheck. This is why having someone who is not reliant upon that financial arrangement and who can give you real answers is to your advantage.

    Now, what you don't know is the past history of this dealer with this rep. Maybe they aren't a great customer for him, maybe they've repeatedly had problems and you're the straw that broke the camels back and Mr. Shaw rep is ready to let the dealer pay the piper. You just don't know and you probably never will. Again, welcome to the wonderful world of flooring claims - where whether your floor is really installed correctly or really has a manufacturing defect can be secondary - but should not be!

    The reason for the delay is twofold - The Shaw rep knows what he told you. Now him and the dealer are most likely having an argument behind the scenes as to how they're going to handle it. If it's a questionable install most likely what will happen is Shaw will cover the material and the dealer will eat the labor to replace it. They're probably arguing over the labor and that's what the true delay is. The second reason is to cool you off and see if you're going to let it go or if you're going to keep pursuing the issue.

    My advice, get a certified inspector. Prepare for the worst - hope for the best. You're in the right, they're trying to wear you out. I wish you the best and hope this gets taken care of the way it should.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
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  16. j248

    j248 Pro Member

    Very well stated. Instantiations and claims are a whole new thread
     
  17. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    Is there an App to reverse autocorrect of what the original word could have been? Sometimes my guesser is puzzled.
     
  18. DAB

    DAB Member

    *
    Thanks again to all. I agree it is time to get our own inspector. It is just frustrating as all get out that I even have to consider suing somebody over something like this.
    *Mr Owner's wife is also owner of the store. This is "her " business. He owns the diaster remediation company and tosses her work I suspect. We went through the store not aware of the connection. Supposedly we used her subs
    *suggestion for the next poor soul that has to go through this... we should have had the Shaw rep jot down or email us a copy of his findings. Also should have relayed on emails for our concerns vs texting. I still have the texts but emails would have been smarter. Mistakes on our part.
     
  19. Mark Brown

    Mark Brown On The Surface Flooring I Support TFP

    It is really hard to believe, that in a world such as ours this is what we have come to. Unfortunate for all of us that play this game there are two sides, most of us operate under the impression that we set out to to do our best and the best is all we do. Then there is what you get stuck with. I can see why you would not think to protect yourself from future deception by recording all conversations and I can understand your frustration. I think if you throw enough muscle around you probably won't end up in litigation, court and replacement is always more money than just replacement. I always find it the people that cause problems are always the least willing to accept them.

    Are they all now just ignoring you or have you just not heard anything new??
     
  20. DAB

    DAB Member

    "Are they all now just ignoring you or have you just not heard anything new??"
    -ignoring me, and I suspect, hoping I will go away.

    I did touch base with a third party inspector today so that is in the works.
     
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