lino or pvc???

Discussion in 'Vinyl Flooring Q&A' started by hookknife, May 6, 2006.

  1. hookknife

    hookknife Hard Surface Installer Charter Member Senior Member

    Which way do you think the industry is going, as linoleum installations grow and the "Green" issues grow how much do you think the sell of sheet vinyls will drop??:D
     
  2. Steve Olson

    Steve Olson Hardwood/Laminate Guru Charter Member Senior Member

    I think goin green is another opportunity for a skilled installer to make some money. The "real stuff" takes expertise and skill to install...plus its not a cheap material. that should scare off most of the hacks, and keep them installing vega, value floor etc.
     
  3. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    I would second that. Not many people in New Zealand want to learn how to use a paper pattern and while there is plenty of work for vinyl layers there is no incentive to be able to do products that are differcult to lay. Even though there is more money there is still more money doing an installation that you are in and out with no hassles
     
  4. hookknife

    hookknife Hard Surface Installer Charter Member Senior Member

    I agree with you guys, i personally love linoleum installations, but for most i think they would rather have something to throw in and get paid, but i was thinking more of the consumer side of it all---if they start going "GREEN" then the demand for lino etc goes up and so does the demand for skilled installers-----i would think that would be good:D
     
  5. William Mear

    William Mear Charter Member

    when did they start making linoleum again?:hu:
     
  6. hookknife

    hookknife Hard Surface Installer Charter Member Senior Member

    They never stopped in europe lol, I started using it again in 1995 on a semi regular basis:D
     
  7. William Mear

    William Mear Charter Member

    are you serious? I did not know this and I usually know these type of things.
    you better not be pulling my leg!:poke: :dance:
     
  8. Lea MacDonald

    Lea MacDonald Charter Member Published

    He kids you not, 1floor. Although lino was pushed aside for a time because of other sheet offerings, it never went away. In fact, Torlys recently introduced a lino laminate with a 100% lino surface - very nice stuff.

    I installed it several times last year. Is it me, or do other installers like the smell of the stuff? Either way, it was a great floor and continues to be a great floor.

    And as the gents above pointed out, it also separates the men from the boys.
     
  9. Chuck Coffer

    Chuck Coffer Well-Known Member

    Well,
    Residential sheet vinyl is getting it's ass kicked, but it is not so much because of linoleum.(y'know Armstrong still makes linoleum) What is happening is that other hard surfaces are becoming more affordable as a result of lowered trade barriers and the efficiencies that come with a "borderless" supply chain. Ceramic continues to take market share at a blistering pace. Wood and laminate are also getting cheaper due to global competition. The thing that is really killing sheet goods is the cost of raw materials. Tile is made from dirt and there is more than enough wood to supply world demand for the forseeable future. Vinyl gets more and more expensive to produce, though.

    Another blow dealt sheet vinyl has been the lack of people with the skillsets that ensure lasting installations. This is one reason that vinyl tile is rapidly gaining in popularity. It is harder to screw up. Resilient sheet is on a path to become an incredibly polarized sector of the floorcovering market. The bottom will flourish as will the top, but the middle is going to die. This is also true of the installers who put these goods in. Pick which end you want to occupy, guys; cuz the trends are undeniable.
     
  10. hookknife

    hookknife Hard Surface Installer Charter Member Senior Member

    DLW ( dutch linoleum works) makes armstrongs lino for them, armstrong hasnt made lino for decades:)
     
  11. William Mear

    William Mear Charter Member

    Thanks for all the info I am a learning.:poke:
     
  12. Chuck Coffer

    Chuck Coffer Well-Known Member

    Ouch! Hooknife caught me. hoho

    To me, the fact that Armstrong has chosen to outsource the production of their linoleum is no more noteworthy than the fact that Bruce,Shaw, Mohawk and others outsource the production of their builder grade engineered wood. I suppose one could say that they don't "make" builder grade engineered, but it would be a semantic distinction and nothing else.
     
  13. hookknife

    hookknife Hard Surface Installer Charter Member Senior Member

    Heres one to think about, armstrong still has thier linoleum manufacturing setups, but thier just not used anymore, i wonder if as lino sales climb they will once again make thier own lino??????:D

    gotttcha chuckster,hehehe:dance:
     
  14. Chuck Coffer

    Chuck Coffer Well-Known Member

    Please explain "setups". Technology is a bitch, y'know. Just because they have a machine does not mean it would be financially feasible to start up in house production.

    Are you sure they have this equipment just sitting around somewhere just waiting to be fired up?

    I am not privvy to any inside info on this. I would appreciate the education.
     
  15. Peter Kodner

    Peter Kodner Inspector Floors Charter Member Senior Member

    Used to be a large cirle A contractor, and we also wound up doing a major amount of lino work before I left the contracting biz. Met a very wise, retired Armstong man about 15 years ago. His version is they got out of the lino biz years ago because they could never find an adhesive that would hold it down anywhere near the length of time it lasted. He added they wanted to get back into the manufactrure but thre was no way the EPA would allow a lino plant to be built in this country due to the effluent from manufacture.

    Largest lino job I ever was involved in was 250,000 yards for a hospital in downtown Chicago. We took a little better than half the project and were replacing some of the areas before the job was done with PVC. It had been speced for wet areas and although I fought with the owner from before we took the job not to install it there, they went ahead with it. A very nice change order for us, cost the owner a ton of money and the architect had no liability!

    Lino will wear like iron but is a bear to install, CANNOT BE WELDED (try heat caulked) and does not handle moisture well.
    It is not very much fun to flash cove either. Be sure you do you moisture testing before any installation! (That was another very large extra , the vapor emmission testing. Seems nobody read the manufacturer's spec too well and we refused to start until we had the results in our hands).

    Should we delve into the "green" aspects of it next?
     
  16. hookknife

    hookknife Hard Surface Installer Charter Member Senior Member

    Hello Peter, i too install a large amount of linoleum in commercial applications, but i love it, its much more forgiving than corlon, but it does have unique qualities and once you understand the product you can install it with great sucess.:D

    Chuck i havnt been to thier plant in PA, but to my understanding they still have even thier drying ovens still standing stove bars and all, its just not manned anymore, but my knowledge of thier plant stops there, sorry:(
     
  17. FloorCraft

    FloorCraft Just another floor guy Charter Member


    Funny you should mention that. Store I used to work for put Armstrongs lino in a doctors office. Put it in with S-235.

    Within a year, everywhere a rolling chair sat there was a three or four foot diameter bubble.

    The repair was to put a different color circle of Forbo lino (or Marmo), with their adhesive, everywhere there was a bubble.

    When the old was cut out, the glue underneath had turned to dust. Not the material but the glue.

    Swept it up and the floor was spotless. Put the dust in a bag and gave it to the Armstrong rep. Never did hear back from him.

    Got my Forbo Cert. in PA. Never mentioned or showed any of us any manufacturing equipment. Said they were strictly a distributer.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2006
  18. hookknife

    hookknife Hard Surface Installer Charter Member Senior Member

    Forbo L-910 lino adhesive is an awesome adhesive, but as far as lino-----linoleum is linoleum, its made the same from company to company DLW, FORBO, etc etc etc:)
     
  19. Chuck Coffer

    Chuck Coffer Well-Known Member

    Bryan,
    I hear there are lots of facilities gathering dust up in the Northeast. I would like to see them up and running. It might serve to stem the steady flood of whiny yankees into my neck of the woods. hehee
     
  20. hookknife

    hookknife Hard Surface Installer Charter Member Senior Member

    I hear ya Chuck, think of the jobs these factories would create keep the money here, hehehe:D
     
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