Let's talk seams..

Discussion in 'Carpet Q&A' started by mamamelanie, Sep 3, 2016.

  1. Darren Ramey

    Darren Ramey Charter Member

    I don't use a board either. Maybe I just need more practice with one, but I have never been able to make as nice a seam on a hard surface as I can over pad. Yeah, I know it isn't by the book, but I'd put my seams up against anyone's.
     
  2. Bigsky

    Bigsky Member

    Exactly, real world experience trumps pamphlet propaganda...another issue I have is padding Hollywood stairs over the nose....that is a no-no on my sites as well

    And that is what matters. Do you care about your seams and do they stand the test of time? If so, and done counter to CRI specs then that means CRI standard is over kill. Over kill generally takes more time and or money..

    Ya, sometimes shooting the bull is fine...but most of the time the best part of the job is telling the customer to have a good day and thanks for the work...
     
  3. Nate Hall

    Nate Hall Types With Elbows Senior Member Published

    After 40 years of carpet installation I no longer use the same technique I started with. I no longer put T-paper under my seams and I no longer Mark, flip, and sew them either. Change is good, dollars are better. But seriously if you are trying to stick something to the backing by pressing down on the top it makes sense to do so on a firm surface, like a board.

    Having the cushion over the nose on contoured steps is also a common sense issue. The pressure applied to the carpet slightly compresses the pad and that compression keeps the steps carpet a bit tighter. Also easier for the carpet to tighten around the nose. Of course if your not tightening the carpet to the utmost it doesn't matter.
     
  4. Bigsky

    Bigsky Member

    I've tore off thousands of stairs padded every way imaginable and have seen no evidence in the pad wear to lend credence to your claim. I've never had to tighten up a stair padding it the way I do either...once again...20 yrs of field tested data vs postulation and presumption.
     
  5. Nate Hall

    Nate Hall Types With Elbows Senior Member Published

    My "postulate on and presumption" comes from 40 years of installation experience on top of which I have multiple certifications and many hours of education specifically dealing with carpet installation. I'm not citing any of that but relying on simple common sense to state the obvious. Tight carpet lasts longer than loose carpet. The cushion over the nose allows the carpet to receive more tension. That is fact.
    No two installatons get the exact same traffic, cleaning schedule, etc. So in 20 years you have taken up some steps and have seen different pad installation methods. Have you ever noticed the comparative age of the carpet? If you did pay attention to this you would see ( like I have, over 4 decadrs) the age difference is relative to the cushion placement.
     
  6. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Simple Physics 101 tells me that if the cushion goes over the nose you will "never" be walking on anything but carpet +cushion. If it does not go over the nose, in many cases I have seen the carpet hit directly on the stair tread, causing accelerated wear. That is my opinion based on 5 decades of observation.

    And yes I have a notebook full of certs to back up any of my claims. I used to say "I am certified by everybody, anybody, and nobody!"
     
  7. JPfloor

    JPfloor Pro Member

    I agree, a board will help but how much help is needed to create a good, strong, seam?

    I think a thermoplastic engineer could probably help in creating a better quality seam tape, which in turn could create a stronger seam but I'm not sure their field of expertise covers whether it is wise to use a board or not? I'd like to leave that up to the experienced installer to decide... LOL

    Thermoplastics - An Introduction
     
  8. Bigsky

    Bigsky Member

    Hey man...you may have my intentions here all wrong...I have much better things to do than argue with you. The fact of the matter is that I would put my installation up against yours any day. I have a stellar reputation and do quality work. I have not had a call back in over a dozen years and that call back was because I forgot to vacuum a closet...I don't have any certifications and I don't have any schooling...I was trained properly and install to that standard...it has served me well. If your technique serves you well...then good. If I caught a helper padding over the nosing I would beat him with my rubber mallet...so there
     
  9. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain Owner/Founder Administrator

    Let's hope not. I'd like to think most pro members here like to learn as much as they like to help. If you don't think it's possible to do either, please let me know. I take personal responsibility.

    That's NOT what we are here for. Although you may find competitors here, it's an unwritten rule that you leave it outside. We are here to make each other better professionals. Take what you like and leave the rest.

    :bow:We bow to your superiority. But don't forget you're on the Interweb - anyone can type anything, so most are skeptical of boastful claims.

    Most pros have found that the methods of those who taught us decades ago have been improved upon, if not found to be seriously flawed even back then. It's like that with pretty much everything. It may be comforting to wax nostalgic, but the truth is, tools and technology has mostly improved. If you don't have an open mind to learning, you will be stuck in the past - and then your real competition will be taking your business away.

    That's pure foolishness. All carpet manufacturers require stretch-in carpet to have a carpet pad wherever it will be walked on. It's a proven fact that stretch-in carpet unprotected by carpet cushion ANYWHERE will wear faster and offer less protection from impact. Think of the head of a child or aging adult striking the nose of a step in a fall. A thin layer of dense pad will add life to the carpet and prevent death or serious injury to a human.

    Don't be a smart-ass when someone here is trying to help you. Disagree if you want, but contempt prior to investigation will be your downfall.
     
  10. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    I like the part about hitting the helper with a rubber mallet.

    Just think of how compassionate this man is. The rubber mallet is much softer than the things I always wanted to hit the helpers with!
     
  11. Nate Hall

    Nate Hall Types With Elbows Senior Member Published

    I would like to add that I have aseen much right to post my methods as anyone and with twice the experience I would think a 2 decades installer would listen. I was wrong on the front only...I stand by the rest...on a perfectly installed floor.
     
  12. Completefloors

    Completefloors Pro Member

    i can easily admit that i learned some great info on this site. I was always a commercial flooring installer and was alway a little nervous about any stretch in because i just felt i wasnt doing things right, and knew that i didnt do residential enough to see all the problems that arrive during installing, or to know how to fix mistakes.

    Turns out, i wasnt doing things right. i was taught a stretch pattern that was wrong. i was taught to stretch in with a kicker and i worked with about 20 different residential guys and never seen 1 use a power stretcher. Bought a power stretcher the same week i found out it was needed to correctly install residential.

    another huge thing i learned was from the video mike ant shared about the mortar spread when installing tiles. something i think i would have never ever learned in life if i didnt see that shared video.

    im sure there are at least a few more things i learned. i think its the opposite of smart, to assume that just because your way has worked out for you through out your career and customers never noticed anything that wasnt correctly done in a professionally installed product they received. I wouldnt call an electrician back if he hooked up an electrical socket and it worked, but i dont know if he did everything according to the professional electrical codes.

    The guys that think they know everything, are the guys i hate having work for me. when i correct them about something, the quick cocky answer i receive immediately is " i been doing this for X amount of years, never had any problems." Now i know i have to try to explain things to a stubborn pissed off guy that is gonna have a problem admitting to me and himself that he been doing something wrong his whole career while he was bragging to everyone about how great of an installer he is.
     
  13. Mike Sliwinski

    Mike Sliwinski The Doctor Is In I Support TFP Senior Member

    Lets get more specific and maybe we should start a new
    topic ? .........When installing stairs ' molded style / hollywood ' I like to extend the padding half way over the nose.

    Side Note:
    Keep posting Bigsky, the forum, like new tools and methods, has a learning curve. Be patient with us and me :p
    Lets keep talking, teaching and learning, because you never know where it could lead.

    Mike
     
  14. Bigsky

    Bigsky Member

    Did you call me a smart ass? Look tough guy, you install yer rug the way you want...I don't really care.. if you think your install lasts longer than mine because you use a seam board, or wrap yer pad around nosing yer friggin crazy..
     
  15. Bigsky

    Bigsky Member

    I have developed my method over two decades with real world data steering my direction. I have honestly critiqued my method vs cri methods and kept what was superior and changed what wasn't. I didn't just blindly follow some pamphlets recommendations. I burned two seams yesterday, one with a seam board and one without. I then brought the tail end of the seams and measured the depth of the tape and backing with a digital micrometer...there was no difference in the depth...not even a one thousandth.... so we have the guys that bow down to untested dogma and those that actually investigate their chosen trade... I'm not real dogmatic
     
  16. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    It is pure ignorance to reject criticism in which only helps a person. If you allow yourself to let go of this fault I assure you, you will profit from it. The attitude is self defeating. What do you want in your wallet?

    Seam board helps to keep backing at same height. Flimsy cushion doesn't help. I think Jim Walker promulgated the method.

    Not only should pad cover the nosing, the substrate should be rounded to increase area of compression from foot traffic reducing stress point, pure physics.
     
  17. kylenelson

    kylenelson You'll find me on the floor I Support TFP Senior Member

    Not a fan of the seam board. The seamerdown pretty much makes it useless
     
  18. Bigsky

    Bigsky Member

    So what's the point of this board? I laid out the fact that stairs padded to the edge of the nosing and not wrapped around the nosing lasts just as long and stays more tight than stairs padded around the entire nose. I've seen it with my own two eyes...you say I didn't...
    I said that my seams made without a seam board are no different than those with a seam board...I've measured them just yesterday and had to mark them so I could tell the difference...you tell me I am lying...

    So what is the point of this board? Why not just post the cri pamphlet and call it a day? Since when did entrepenures, American entrepreneurs, say that we can not question dogma and ask them to prove themselves in real world applications?

    I would be more impressed if any of you went out and performed some tests on your beloved theories vs other methods..I doubt you will. So I will continue to think for myself, do my jobs and sleep well at night...as long as y'all can do the same what is the difference, really?
     
  19. Nate Hall

    Nate Hall Types With Elbows Senior Member Published

    You say you aren't that dogmatic, until someone questions your dogma.
     
  20. Bigsky

    Bigsky Member

    ??????????prove me wrong and I'll admit it..I've proved there to be equally good methods contrary to the cri bible...the onus is on you bud

    Love the avatar

    Perhaps it is you? I had a guy tell me I cut my pad bag wrong...I told him I'd been doing it this way for X amount of years :yesss:
     
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