Latest Aggenda Update

Discussion in 'Industry News, Training & Organizations' started by Peter Kodner, Dec 21, 2007.

  1. Peter Kodner

    Peter Kodner Inspector Floors Charter Member Senior Member

    IP: Internet Provider

    I only wish I had some leftover. Might use it for luxuries, like food...

    I think Mike tends to pontification, but lots of folks have different on line personalities than face to face ones, to wit Mr. Darrah. In person, he is a pretty meek man, just a pain when on line.

    I'd like to see Mike Fink come to Tulsa. I'm sure he would be an asset if he came in the spirit of cooperation.

    PS Still haven't gotten to the agenda, just taking a break from reports to see what was going on here at TFP :D
     
  2. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    What is your estimate for the agenda release?
     
  3. Peter Kodner

    Peter Kodner Inspector Floors Charter Member Senior Member

    No inspects tomorrow :( Should be finalizing it then :D
     
  4. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    It does not look like we are going to get the CRI-104 & 105 books donated. Therefore, should I start printing them for the workbook?
     
  5. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Do you think 150 workbooks will be enough for the inital printing?
     
  6. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain Owner/Founder Administrator

    Did you speak with someone about the CRI pamphlets?

    Hard to say about the printing numbers. We have time. Do we have to place a printing order this far in advance? I'd like to be able to get this in front of the media and on other websites to see the kind of response we'll get. Right now, there are only 2 forums talking about this and one of them has a bit of a negative bent to it (flooringinstaller.com), although not entirely.

    T
     
  7. Bud Cline

    Bud Cline Tile Expert Charter Member Senior Member Published

    CRI is the Carpet and Rug Institute, is that right?
    What exactly is the Carpet and Rug Institute? What do they stand for and what is their goal in the industry? Are the CRI-105 & 105 publications proprietary and is their permission required to print (re-print) the documents?:)

    I'll reserve some additional comments I have running through my mind for later.:)
     
  8. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    I will be doing the printing on my equipment so we can start any time we are ready. I spoke to CRI about donating them and they declined to donate, but said they would sell them to us at their cost. The cost was over $2.00 per copy. I can print them for less than that.

    I am receiving reports and other information to print for the workbook not just CRI and I am itching to get started. After all it is only 5 months away.:D
     
  9. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    The CRI website lists them at $100 for 100 copies of 104 and $150 per 100 of 105.
    Call them up and ask them to honor their listed prices.
     
  10. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain Owner/Founder Administrator

    If you have a contact there, ask them permission to re-print copies of the online PDF files for CRI-104 and CRI-105 Then it doesn't cost them a thing and it only costs you the price of ink and paper (which I know is substantial enough with ink selling for around 50 bucks a batch).

    Bud, CRI-104 and 105 is the industry standards for carpet installation of residential and commercial carpet. They are generally recognized as the leading authority in that regard, although there is verbose debate about whether they are rules or suggestions, standards or guidelines. It doesn't matter. No carpet professional should be without the publications in their libraries.

    T
     
  11. Bud Cline

    Bud Cline Tile Expert Charter Member Senior Member Published

    Yow I know exactly whom they are - that was a rhetorical question.

    My point is...what would be the harm in their donating some copies to an educational cause such as this. At a buck or two per copy they can't be using the proceeds to contribute to an income base, they are simply covering costs at that price. So why not do something to promote those standards and get them into the hands of some installers? Why not be a friend of the industry? Why can't they dig into their pockets - WE ARE?

    WHO is the CRI? What is the daily function of the CRI? Are there any paid employees at the CRI? Where does their support and monies come from? I think I am largely disappointed in the CRI so far. Hey wait!!! Why doesn't the CRI send a representative to the workshop and have him or her bring a case of standards with them.:) Better yet, let one of the carpet mills pay the costs of publications.
     
  12. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    I already have permission to print all we want from their website. I talked to a mill today and told them about the workshop and that we would be sending information as soon as it was available. They did not know if anyone could attend, because they sure have cut back on travel expenses. Lets wait until this all goes public and see in any supplier steps forward wanting to help.
     
  13. Woody1

    Woody1 Charter Member

    Going to try this one more time. Am typing this in word, then transfer it to the forum.

    For all of you that don’t know me from squat, my experience began back in 81 in the industry. I started selling product in a residential retail store (New Hampshire). My sales kept not making money, so I went with the installers to find out what was going on. Being a hands on kinda guy, it didn’t take me long to realize I needed to be installing instead of selling. I worked my way into helping installers and getting paid for that doing pad and tacks. Eventually, I learned how to do stretch in carpet and on to hard surface work. Moved back to the Midwest. (where I am from) Went from residential to commercial work only. Hired a crew of anywhere from 10-17 people at a time doing commercial work only (hospitals, schools). One job I was doing had an area of approx. 6k sq. ft. not in my contract to do. I found out what it was, and who had it. Contacted them and got involved in it. The product was a synthetic sport floor from Germany and the company sent in a guy from Canada to train me and show me how to install it. After this job, I knew that this was the type of floors I wanted to be associated with. I got rid of all my help, and started the “experience” After a couple more training jobs, I got my own to do. Also did game-line layout and paintings. The same company had a product from France that needed to be heat welded and I knew how to do that as well. Eventually, I ended up traveling all over USA and as far away as China, Japan, Cuba etc… being a tech rep for 4 distributors in the usa of this floor. It was my job to install start to finish or show others how to do it.
    Along comes 1999, my boys are getting big, wants dads attention. 6 distributors of the product now in the usa. I would call for work, they say, “You remember that crew you trained, they are going to be doing all my work now. We thank you for showing and helping them.”At that point, I obtained an MFMA manufacturer mill for Iowa and surrounding states and started selling/holding contracts as well as installing/subcontracting the installations of BOTH wood and synthetic sport floorings. After 5 years, that mill bought out one of their competitors and that dealer for Iowa came along with the buyout. Left me in the dust. I now chase after the fitness industry and am doing only what I can do for myself and no more.
    Why do I say all this? I have seen and/or installed all different types of flooring out there. Had installations go bad, some my fault, others not. Have had wood gym floors inspected by the governing body of wood sport floorings and found no faults. Gone on inspections of synthetic sport floors (I was the inspector) and seen about everything gone wrong, or client’s misconceptions of what they were getting.
    The main thing that I have gotten out of all these years, seen grow throughout the years is this…..how many more organizations are going to be telling the various groups within the flooring industry what and how to do things? I think all of the various groups should band together as one and develop the SAME written standards for everyone. This works VERY well within the sport flooring industry, especially the wood part. It is my experience that if you follow the guidelines of handling the product and installation of the product from, in this order, the manufacturer, and then the “governing body” in my case it was MFMA (Maple Flooring Manufacturers Association). If those simple written instructions are followed, then there is virtually no fault on the installer or contractor of anything going wrong with the finished flooring.
    What you guys are wanting to do is commendable, but with all the posts here, I think the initial idea has been lost. Correct me if I am wrong, but it was to have a better understanding of what inspectors look for and what installers could do better to keep from being inspected and knowing what goes on with an inspection.
    All this talk of getting stuff from CRI, what next? Stuff from the resilient institute? , Then the ceramic people, then the wood groups? I am not quit sure where or what you are all wanting to get out of this conference that isn’t already posted somewhere on someone’s “white paper” ?
    Sorry for the long rant here, but I thought it best to explain rather than just post final comments. Would your time be better spent trying to get all the “governing bodies” together to create some “governing guidelines” for the entire flooring business, rather than everyone wanting to look out for their own interests? With so many publications out there, no wonder there are so many conflicting things that can go wrong. I, personally have come to the conclusion that if the conditions and product are not suited to how its written on manufacturers paper, it doesn’t get shipped from manufacturer, and installation will not even start until conditions are acceptable for the product which intended. What ever happened to “just follow the instructions”? Thsi forum is geared torward residetial work from what I can see. The sport flooring world is a different bear all in its own. I have been out of the residential world for quite some time. Maybe I am shooting out of my but here, but it sure doesnt seem that people follow directions any more, else the need for all the inspectors would not be there.
     
  14. Bud Cline

    Bud Cline Tile Expert Charter Member Senior Member Published

    Holy Crap Woody1!!!! Have you ever heard of paragraphs.:):):) Man my eyes hurt.:)

    I suppose everyone may be reading something a little different when they assemble all of the comments here to draw their own conclusions. I think what you suggest about getting everyone on the same page is exactly what this workshop is all about. In fact from what you say here I think you agree with this whether you realize it or not.:)

    Sure there are plenty of organizations in the industry but truthfully the recommendations of each area don't vary much within the respective area I don't think. The big problem is (and you hit it on the head) no one seems to be able to read and follow the instructions. Some of the problem with that is some of these guys don't know there are instructions.

    I think maybe the one thing this TFP/F.I.T.S. Workshop project has going for it is that the organizers (including you) have plenty of well rounded experience and should be able to turn some heads in time. I think the entire industry needs a steering committee, who knows this project may be the seed.:) Most of us are eleventh-hour old farts with lots of whiskers and the intelligence to know how to thump on a few heavyweights in the field.

    Hang in there and don't hesitate to mention whatever comes to mind. So far this idea hasn't gone public but when it does it may take on a total change of direction - whooo knows.:)

    Hey Rome wasn't built in a day, if it had been we could hire that guy.:)
     
  15. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Is there anything the committee members can do to help you get the agenda out?
     
  16. Woody1

    Woody1 Charter Member

    "Holy Crap Woody1!!!! Have you ever heard of paragraphs. Man my eyes hurt."
    wHATS THAT? :hu:
     
  17. Bud Cline

    Bud Cline Tile Expert Charter Member Senior Member Published

    I was having trouble reading this::D

    Going to try this one more time. Am typing this in word, then transfer it to the forum.

    For all of you that don’t know me from squat, my experience began back in 81 in the industry. I started selling product in a residential retail store (New Hampshire). My sales kept not making money, so I went with the installers to find out what was going on. Being a hands on kinda guy, it didn’t take me long to realize I needed to be installing instead of selling. I worked my way into helping installers and getting paid for that doing pad and tacks. Eventually, I learned how to do stretch in carpet and on to hard surface work. Moved back to the Midwest. (where I am from) Went from residential to commercial work only. Hired a crew of anywhere from 10-17 people at a time doing commercial work only (hospitals, schools). One job I was doing had an area of approx. 6k sq. ft. not in my contract to do. I found out what it was, and who had it. Contacted them and got involved in it. The product was a synthetic sport floor from Germany and the company sent in a guy from Canada to train me and show me how to install it. After this job, I knew that this was the type of floors I wanted to be associated with. I got rid of all my help, and started the “experience” After a couple more training jobs, I got my own to do. Also did game-line layout and paintings. The same company had a product from France that needed to be heat welded and I knew how to do that as well. Eventually, I ended up traveling all over USA and as far away as China, Japan, Cuba etc… being a tech rep for 4 distributors in the usa of this floor. It was my job to install start to finish or show others how to do it.
    Along comes 1999, my boys are getting big, wants dads attention. 6 distributors of the product now in the usa. I would call for work, they say, “You remember that crew you trained, they are going to be doing all my work now. We thank you for showing and helping them.”At that point, I obtained an MFMA manufacturer mill for Iowa and surrounding states and started selling/holding contracts as well as installing/subcontracting the installations of BOTH wood and synthetic sport floorings. After 5 years, that mill bought out one of their competitors and that dealer for Iowa came along with the buyout. Left me in the dust. I now chase after the fitness industry and am doing only what I can do for myself and no more.
    Why do I say all this? I have seen and/or installed all different types of flooring out there. Had installations go bad, some my fault, others not. Have had wood gym floors inspected by the governing body of wood sport floorings and found no faults. Gone on inspections of synthetic sport floors (I was the inspector) and seen about everything gone wrong, or client’s misconceptions of what they were getting.
    The main thing that I have gotten out of all these years, seen grow throughout the years is this…..how many more organizations are going to be telling the various groups within the flooring industry what and how to do things? I think all of the various groups should band together as one and develop the SAME written standards for everyone. This works VERY well within the sport flooring industry, especially the wood part. It is my experience that if you follow the guidelines of handling the product and installation of the product from, in this order, the manufacturer, and then the “governing body” in my case it was MFMA (Maple Flooring Manufacturers Association). If those simple written instructions are followed, then there is virtually no fault on the installer or contractor of anything going wrong with the finished flooring.
    What you guys are wanting to do is commendable, but with all the posts here, I think the initial idea has been lost. Correct me if I am wrong, but it was to have a better understanding of what inspectors look for and what installers could do better to keep from being inspected and knowing what goes on with an inspection.
    All this talk of getting stuff from CRI, what next? Stuff from the resilient institute? , Then the ceramic people, then the wood groups? I am not quit sure where or what you are all wanting to get out of this conference that isn’t already posted somewhere on someone’s “white paper” ?
    Sorry for the long rant here, but I thought it best to explain rather than just post final comments. Would your time be better spent trying to get all the “governing bodies” together to create some “governing guidelines” for the entire flooring business, rather than everyone wanting to look out for their own interests? With so many publications out there, no wonder there are so many conflicting things that can go wrong. I, personally have come to the conclusion that if the conditions and product are not suited to how its written on manufacturers paper, it doesn’t get shipped from manufacturer, and installation will not even start until conditions are acceptable for the product which intended. What ever happened to “just follow the instructions”? Thsi forum is geared torward residetial work from what I can see. The sport flooring world is a different bear all in its own. I have been out of the residential world for quite some time. Maybe I am shooting out of my but here, but it sure doesnt seem that people follow directions any more, else the need for all the inspectors would not be there.
     
  18. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Today is Thursday and we are shooting for the agenda being submitted to the membership this week. What is the holdup?:)
     
  19. Peter Kodner

    Peter Kodner Inspector Floors Charter Member Senior Member

    Tandy, you have the final revision. I thought we had a discussion the post would come from you and not I as FITS is sponsoring the event! I can post it if you like and apologize if there was a misunderstanding.
     
  20. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    I had no idea I was to submit it. This is the work of the committee. I will attempt to send it on to Jim and see what happens.
     
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