Konecto Casa edges coming apart

Discussion in 'Vinyl Flooring Q&A' started by Lifsabsurd, Dec 4, 2009.

  1. Lo Down

    Lo Down Old as dirt member Charter Member Senior Member

    Ya, it sure is. :p I'd probably cost Konecto too much if I was working for them in their R&D department. :D
    So how come Amtico ain't makin' one of these type of floors?
  2. Lifsabsurd

    Lifsabsurd Well-Known Member

    The 2 Allure planks involved in the test came from a single box of Allure I bought *weeks* ago to use as a control. That box has been sitting on a cocktail table in my family room all that time. Two planks from that box were used in the foyer, which is adjacent to the family room (through an open doorway). Distance between planks and foyer floor on the one hand, and box of planks on the other, is about 10 to 15 feet.

    The Konecto planks in the foyer came from a box which has been sitting on the floor in my dining room for about 3 months, ever since delivery. They are from one of four boxes that were never actually taken down to the basement. I have an open dining room - living room - foyer area. The Konecto box in the dining room is sitting maybe 25 feet from the foyer with no walls in between, i.e., it is one continuous open space.

    I didn't think I needed to acclimate them to closer locations in the same upstairs space, before gluing them together, but I cannot be sure it would not have made a difference. I doubt that temps. could differ from one place to another by more than 1 degree?? With the ordinary cycling of a furnace off and on the temperatures in a house I think normally go up and down by a few degrees in any case.

    It brings up a question, I suppose. In a larger open space does one need to acclimate these planks for 48 hours within, let's say, 10 feet of where one is going to lay them?
  3. Lifsabsurd

    Lifsabsurd Well-Known Member

    This brings up yet another topic I have been wondering about. These planks are indeed *layered*.

    I have thought about the priniciple of how a mercury switch used to work in old thermostats. Most people probably know that the switch is attached to a metal strip/coil made of two different metals with different thermal coefficients of expansion. A change of temp. causes more or less coiling of the strip because of differential expansion/contraction of the bimetal strip.

    The wear layer of the planks (very thin, 4 mil, decorative top layer) of the Casa is made (I think) of urethane (I am not sure), a different plastic than vinyl. But the coefficient of thermal expansion for urethane is (I believe) not very different than for polyvinylchloride. I am not knowledgable in these matters and I could be wrong.

    I reported earlier in this thread that the Allure seems to have a layer different than the Casa, an extra "membrane" on the very bottom of the lower layer of vinyl. It appears to be made of a plastic different in composition than the vinyl layers. I wondered if this is there to create what you seem to be suggesting. I mean, is it there to prevent curving or coiling, i.e., to be a counter-force?

    Because such analogies to known materials might be useful to think about, I have also been thinking about how an ordinary rubber band works. When new it is elastic. It has a "memory" for a certain size and shape. With age it loses elasticity. But even when new, if bent or stretched long enough it might develop a new memory for a different size or shape.

    It seems very likely to me that the problem I am seeing on my actual floor is the result of at least two interacting properties of the planks (maybe more than two). One would be the curling/coiling/lifting tendency of the edges of the planks. And the other factor would be the ability/inability of the glue bonds to prevent that, to maintain a bond, and to keep the planks stuck together.

    Glue failure and separation is one thing. If the glue bond is weak or pulls apart (let's say from horizontal shrinkage of the planks) that does not itself seem to me to imply curling up of lose edges. It seems that, depending on the material properties involved, the edges might still lie flat.

    It seems much more likely to me from what I have seen that the curling up of the edges is what breaks the glue bond, although I find that counter-intuitive. I would not have thought the glue bond could be pulled apart by the relatively weak force of a bending or curling tab. Yet, I seem to be witnessing that happen. Low or borderline temps. probably exacerbate the curling process. But, if the glue bond is strong enough one would be OK.

    Note that when one lowers the temp. sufficiently the vinyl becomes almost brittle. I left a plank just lying on a work bench in my unheated garage for a day or so and then tried to flex it along its length. It literally "cracked" like a piece of peanut brittle. At low enough temps. (20s, 30s) therefore I don't see how there could be any curling. If one stretched a rubber band and then froze it, would it recoil?

    The curling process probably occurs relatively slowly with temp. change. If the temp. is lowered rather quickly, over a matter of a few hours, I doubt that they will curl in that time. And if temp. is lowered enough, fast enough, they will likely become inflexible and never curl. This may explain why the planks do not separate (or curl) in my unheated garage and also explain the reports of them surviving nicely in unheated homes in Minnesota winters.

    Curling could, of course, theoretically also be a result of a "memory" which a plank may have because of previous handling or perhaps of previous exposure to different temps. It might also be that the planks are inherently unstable. One could speculate that some planks are created in a way that the material is non-homogeneous, and that, when removed from the weight of other planks in a box, they begin spontaneously to change shape. One might also wonder about possible solvent evaporation over time.

    Of course, this is all speculation.

    BTW, the bent-tab-Konecto plank is now clearly lifting. It took about 4 days after the weights were removed. So much for the idea that, if the planks are held together for 48 hours then a chemical reaction will occur and a tighter bond will form that will better resist pulling apart.

    To this day, no amount of speculatin or theorizing on my part can explain why I did not see 6 planks, equilibrated and put together at basement temps., curl or lift or pull apart on the basement floor for 10 days. Two sets of two planks similarly treated have also been lying on my basement flloor for several weeks and have also not lifted or curled or pulled apart. Other than not being rolled and not being part of a much larger sheet I believe they were treated the same as the planks on the rest of the basement floor, the ones that are virtually all lifting. I cannot explain this observation. And I really don't believe it can be due to lack of rolling.

    Another long post. Sorry.
  4. Lo Down

    Lo Down Old as dirt member Charter Member Senior Member

    If they were acclimated close to the living conditions you met the requirements, as long as the minimum conditions were met. They simply don't want people buying the Konecto (or any other flooring product for that matter) that has been stored in a warehouse at 45 degrees and 75% humidity and taking it into a warm home with 40% humidity and starting the installation that day.
    The only two issues I see are the temperature of the slab at the time of installation and any possible moisture issues. The glue bond can be affected by temperature and moisture.
    (I saw that you did do the CC test after the fact.)

    Many vinyls want to shrink. I figure that old vinyl floors often have curled edges because there is paper on the bottom layer and vinyl on the top layer.... like the bi-metal effect you mentioned.
    If they made a sandwich of the top portion of the plank like in my drawing to keep it from curling, I think the sandwich would need identical vinyl composition and thicknesses for both of those layers. I don't think that the top wear layer is thick enough to have any real effect as far as curling goes. I figure if that top sandwich was done, the base material under it could be of a different material as long as it was resistant to shrinkage.

    If they said the temperature needs to be greater than 65 degrees, in my opinion, since temperature seems to be critical, they should have stated 64.25 degrees on the instructions.
    65 degrees would not be noticed much by anyone. Now if they said 64.6 degrees in the instructions, :eek::eek::eek: it would really catch peoples attention and emphasize the importance of temperature at installation time.
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2010
  5. Lifsabsurd

    Lifsabsurd Well-Known Member

    The thing is that the warranty requirements for temperature have been changed over time. I discussed that earlier in this thread. The instructions I received in the boxes said one thing. The current temp. requirements are not the same.
  6. Lo Down

    Lo Down Old as dirt member Charter Member Senior Member

    So Konecto learned something then didn't they. :yesss:

    One other note about shrinkage and heat. Vinyl will expand from heat............. but over time it can shrink. Put a heat gun, sunlight, or as a friend of mine did once with a floor buffer on some perimeter glued vinyl............ it grows. Age + heat + time can shrink it.
  7. Lifsabsurd

    Lifsabsurd Well-Known Member

    This is an interesting point. See post #112 in this thread. When I spoke to a lab guy at Professional Testing Labs he recommended testing for "dimensional stability." We talked about this topic and he informed me that PVC shrinks with increasing temperature like, for example, cotton or polyester clothes in the clothes dryer. I had previously assumed that it was decreasing temp. that would cause shrinkage.

    According to the lab guy there are industry standards for "dimensional stability." I wonder how these planks would do on the professional test. Anyone want to chip in to pay for the $100 test (estimated for shipping planks and cost of test)?
  8. Lifsabsurd

    Lifsabsurd Well-Known Member

    For the record, I repeated the bent tab test on both Konecto and Allure planks. The results were the same. Within a few days the Konecto lifted again. The Allure has not lifted for over a week. This test is not quantitative, but I held the Konecto tab up and counted to 20 and I did the same for the Allure tab - trying not to bend one more than the other.

    There seems to me on this basis to be a difference either in the holding power of the glue or in the characteristics of the materials in my Konecto versus the Allure. Konecto has said this was a bad glue batch, and that is consistent with this result. Nevertheless, if I were installing Konecto planks I would be very careful about not bending the tabs up as I install them, even if the glue is good.

    I never rented a 100 pound roller again to test the idea that rolling causes curling. I did try a rolling pin from the kitchen and it had no apparent effect. I doubt that the rolling was a problem, but I am not sure. Someone should test it.

    If temperature is a factor in all this, it seems to me that there must be a sort of "borderline only" effect. Perhaps at borderline low temps. (somewhere around 63 to 65 degrees?) the material is induced to curl upward and is still flexible enough for the tabs to lift and separate. Perhaps this effect happens down to even lower temps. But, at some point, with respect to low temps., the material seems to be too inflexible to curl and yet the glue seems to hold. Anyone else want to comment on temperature effects?

    I still wonder about what other causes there may be for curling to occur, including the question as to whether the technique of installation, of laying the planks, could actually induce significant bending of the upper tabs. I doubt it, but it could be crudely tested.

    Apparently, I have received a full refund for the materials from Indiana Flooring, my retailer. Hugh Scott seems to have credited the cost back to my credit card. I can only say good things at this point about his role in all this.

    He states that he has only had a couple of such failures and I suppose that is correct. In other words, to the best of my knowledge, most people seem to have had good luck with Konecto. Just don't be one of those who has bad luck. Once the flooring is torn out I estimate that this experience will still have cost me about $500, not counting my own labor, with nothing to show for it.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2010
  9. Lifsabsurd

    Lifsabsurd Well-Known Member

    Want to hear something funny?

    I have been in contact with the BBB of Connecticut, where Metroflor is located. I have been trying for some time to get reimbursed for the money I feel they owe me for labor. I only asked for the $300 it cost me to have the old Konecto flooring torn out and hauled away.

    Today I got an e-mail from the BBB. In it is a response from Metroflor. Metroflor claims to have paid over $1500 to its distributor IN ADDITION to the materials-cost-reimbursement which I got. It claims the distributor was supposed to send this to the retailer who was supposed to have sent it to me. I never got it. Nor have I got a notification that I would be getting it.

    So, what is the truth? Damned if I know. But perhaps I have been unfair to Konecto. And perhaps Konecto should find better distributors and/or retailers?
  10. Lifsabsurd

    Lifsabsurd Well-Known Member

    Let me make it clear. Metroflor claims that it did authorize and give out payment for over $1500 of LABOR costs - which I never got.
  11. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain Owner/Founder Administrator

    Sounds like it's time to confront the dealer with this info.

  12. Lifsabsurd

    Lifsabsurd Well-Known Member

    Just sent an e-mail to him.
  13. kylenelson

    kylenelson You'll find me on the floor I Support TFP Senior Member

    This will only get messy if someone's lying. If there's an honest mistake somewhere I'm sure it can be resolved easily. However, if you have to make the dealer prove how much they recieved by seeing bank statements then it might get ugly haha.

    I'm truly sorry for all the troubles you've had with your floor. What a nightmare.
  14. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    The dealer is none other than Hugh Scott.

    He has stated several times that he is a Christian.
  15. Barry Carlton

    Barry Carlton I Support TFP Senior Member Published

    Makes you wonder why someone would have to trumpet it ahead of him.

    Kinda like trumpeting how great an installer you are. It really should be evident in your life/workmanship and reputation.

    My statement is not about a certain individual it is an observation about people.
  16. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain Owner/Founder Administrator

    I agree in part what Barry said, but I do see why some would want to let people know certain things, especially if those things wouldn't be so apparent on a medium like the Internet. Problem with putting that out there enough for people to remember, is that occasionally you'll do something decidedly un-Christian. Then people will jump all over it.

    I don't think it matters who or what the dealer is. The consumer in this case has been told something by the manufacturer and it should be passed onto the dealer so the consumer can decide what steps to take next. If it's true, it's an opportunity for the dealer to make it right. If it's not true, then putting the parties together should bring that to light and further action can be taken.

    Nice thing about this particular topic is that both Konecto and the dealer are following it. I am pretty sure it will get resolved somehow. Reputations are at stake here.

  17. Lifsabsurd

    Lifsabsurd Well-Known Member

    Well, interesting. At least to me. Here are the facts as I understand them. If I find that any facts are wrong I will correct them in future posts.

    I received a reply from my retailer. He admits that he and the distributor received the roughly $1500 in labor costs from Konecto in addition to the materials cost reimbusement given to them. But he argues that this money simply reimbursed them for shipping costs and their markup (profit), amounts that were not included by Konecto in the materials reimbusement. He argues that, if Konecto had not given them this labor cost money, he would not have been able to give me a full materials refund without losing money. Imagine, Konecto gave money to them for my labor costs.

    [Of course the way I see it he means - without losing his profit on the deal. Does this mean then that he never had any intention of sacrificing his profit on the deal, even when the merchandise turned out to be defective? I don't know. What do you think? I once gave him credit for being willing to give back the profit he made on the deal.]

    He once offered me the $300 I asked for to cover the cost of removing and hauling away the defective tile. It was my understanding that *he* would be giving me that money, out of his own pocket. He told me that he would try to get it back from Konecto. I declined to take his money, saying I wanted it from Konecto, not him. I wanted to be fair to him.

    I do not know whether he and the distributor had already received labor cost money from Konecto at the time, or whether Konecto had already agreed to pay such money, or whether Konecto agreed to give them the labor cost money only after this offer was made by him to me. He did not inform me of that.

    I have to wonder. Shipping costs? What, a couple of hundred dollars? Roughly a couple of hundred dollars profit (markup) on the sale? Does the roughly $1500 from Konecto *just barely* cover those additonal amounts that the distributor and the retailer spent on the deal, or profited from the deal? Or did they, when one calculates the bottom line, still make some profit on the deal? Did they perhaps make even more profit than on the original deal? I wonder. What do you think?

    In any case, I am apparently not going to get the $300 dollars or any other labor money reimbursement, even though I now consider, knowing more than I did before, that it would be fair for my retailer to give me that money. He says I declined it and the deal is over. He tells me to have my lawyer contact his.

    Readers can decide for themselves what they think about all this.
  18. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    Both the retailer and distributor have profit margin, overhead and handling costs. Most likely there's a pretty standard restocking charge and also standards for handling warranty claims. If you paid $300 to have the material torn out and hauled away you deserve to have that cost covered as well. It seems your generosity and sense of fairness to the "system" cost you $300 in this case when you turned that offer down. It's often the case that we pay for our integrity in such ways. I'd let this thing go if I were you.
  19. Lifsabsurd

    Lifsabsurd Well-Known Member

    I told my retailer that I did not want the money from him but I DID want the $300 from Konecto. Konecto claims to have authorized over $1500 for labor costs - for me. But that money is NOT coming from Konecto? Not intended for me? Konecto claims to have paid my labor costs, but that money is in fact paid to and belongs to the distributor and retailer instead? The retailer lets me believe that he lost money on the deal and lets me believe that he refunded his profit to me?

    When one is sold a defective product, a product that is worth absolutely nothing, I believe one should get all his money back. If I were a retailer I would return my own profit as well. If this sort of thing happened frequently I would stop selling the product. If it happened only rarely then I would look at the "profit" as money that I never really made in the first place. I would look at it as the cost of doing business.
  20. Daris Mulkin

    Daris Mulkin The One and Only Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    I would think that you are entitled to what you were invoiced for. No more no less.


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