Karndean Van Gogh that dents so easily?

Discussion in 'Vinyl Flooring Q&A' started by DrKevin, Mar 5, 2018.

  1. DrKevin

    DrKevin Well-Known Member

    Dear All,

    I just purchased a new built flat and after not even 6 months in it I noticed that even me (70kg) sitting on a normal chair is denting the Karndean floor (see photo).

    I did noticed very quickly that the sofa and the other chair was denting quite badly the flooring but I put that on the fact that the legs are quite small and that the pressure must have been too high.

    Well not really since the sofa had a fifth leg in the middle that is supposed to alleviate some of the weight... but that leg is also denting the flooring! I did quickly put coaster cups on these.

    So my question is: is it normal? Should I just learn to live with it or is there something in the sub-floor that has not been done correctly? I am trying to figure out who installed the flooring but so far no answer from the builder.

    Thank you for any help you could offer to a novice !

    Cheers,

    Kev
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    Where you located?

    Pictures! You rock.

    Is it glued or might there be a roll underlayment (floating floor?)
     
  3. DrKevin

    DrKevin Well-Known Member

    Thank you for your quick reply. I have no idea if this is glued or not...

    Could you tell if I show you one of the joint ?

    I’m located in Kent in UK
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    Ok, if you tap on it with your fingernail does it sound hollow? Or solid.

    Is it wood subfloor or concrete?
     
  5. DrKevin

    DrKevin Well-Known Member

  6. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain Owner/Founder Administrator

    Those little button caps on the furniture legs aren't helping. They are pretty small. Freshly installed vinyl planks are softer than those that have been down a while. Do the dents recover - are they pretty much gone after a day?

    The video doesn't help a lot, neither does the picture of the plank join. Take a 6 or 8" strip of duct tape, fold it in half (sticky side to sticky side) except for the last 2" of each leg, then spread those 2 legs over the flooring and press them down. Now you have a handle to give a little tug up on the flooring to see if it moves, which means it's not glued down. Tug too hard and it may come loose from the glue, if there is any, so don't pull too hard. It's just a test. You can repeat the test in several places to get an accurate result. Clean the tape residue off with a cloth slightly dampened with mineral spirits.

    What Mike might be suggesting is that too thick an underlayment material was used under a floating vinyl plank floor. Maybe a rubber, cork or some other thick, flexible material was used that causes the flooring to dent easier under those little furniture caps.
     
  7. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    Something is wrong with the subtrate/underlayment/surface preparation.

    That's simply not going to be a problem related to the floor covering materials. That doesn't happen under any cirumstances I can envision if the flooring is properly installed------which means FLOOR PREP.

    Without any more info my guess is they did a "piss coat" of floor patch to flatten and smooth the surface. By piss coat I mean they mixed 200-500% more water into the floor patch than is recommended by the manufacturer. You can really make the flooring look flat and smooth for a minute with a watered down floor patch.

    ----------til someone startes using the floor.
     
  8. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    Finally watched the video, sounds very much like a floating floor to me, I can even hear the air gap between the plank and ?(either roll underlayment or substrate)

    An initial observation by the one leg is substantial, it looks recessed about whatever 1/16” is in your mm measurements. I think it’s improper roll underlayment.

    Let me tell you, From the reputation of the name Karndean of all that I’ve gathered on this site, the name Van Gogh, it’s certainly not that particular product. That stuff doesn’t compress easily. So as we say it’s underneath that product is the cause. I assume this is your commercial Dr.’s Office? Someone seriously messed up. Karndean makes floating(? for pros here) I tagged out of the ring when floating came out, I Demo flooring that floating is replacing.
     
  9. Steve Olson

    Steve Olson Hardwood/Laminate Guru Charter Member Senior Member

    I cant speak to the prep, or lack of, but, we installed Tandus Centiva tile in the surgery waiting room, I mixed the Ardex finish proper, { which drives the installer that works with me crazy) The room is lined around the perimeter with chairs, about 1" legs with that little button Jim speaks of. When I was back there this past May, I was shocked at the indentations from the legs. That's probably the toughest plank tile I've installed, and it dented, so I guess I can say I'm not surprised. But there are the variables.
    Is it on concrete, or a wood subfloor? Maybe they use Luan ply as the U/L?
     
  10. Grant H

    Grant H I'd rather be patting my dog.


    Van Gogh is a glue down product. Full glue is the only way it should be fitted. It's a tough product, one of the better I've laid (3mm thick), but plastic is plastic. All that weight on those little feet...:(.
    You get the average person (70kgs give or take) and balance them on four "Bottle Caps" and you're going to see some compression.
     
  11. Steve Olson

    Steve Olson Hardwood/Laminate Guru Charter Member Senior Member

    That's what i was trying to say, but it seemed he wasn't positive it was Karndeen. I've done a LOT of it, have in my my own home, I have't seen or heard of one of our installs indenting, but I know its possible. 70kgs is almost 160 lbs, those little buttons are around 3/8". So, 80lbs on something 3/8" in diameter? Seems likely to me. Right?
    Neither the original poster, or any of us, has all the facts, so, everything is speculation.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. DrKevin

    DrKevin Well-Known Member

    Thank you so much for your help.

    I am trying to get an answer from the builders about how the flooring was installed.

    Online they said that the flooring can resist to 2000 psi! That’s far from what I put in pressure on it.

    Also something strange is that I have a heavy coffee table in glass that is denting only at one of the four corners!
     
  13. Grant H

    Grant H I'd rather be patting my dog.

    I can't see a PSI rating anywhere but I did find...

    Indentation - residual
    EN 433/ISO 24343-1 ≤ 0.1mm
    ASTM F1914 <8%


    ...if anyone can translate. About the coffee table...yep...that is an odd one.
     
  14. DrKevin

    DrKevin Well-Known Member

  15. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    I agree the legs of all furniture should be 1” square minimum to reduce psi and it may be product slightly indented but i don’t think it’s the majority of the indentation. I have seen Ardex FF indent when I pressed down with my nail after it set.

    If it were glued and 1/16” square notch trowel and set dry would be like putting the plank on stilts, there is room for compression/indentation.
     
  16. DrKevin

    DrKevin Well-Known Member

    I suspect that this is something to do with the underflooring then.

    I am trying to get the builders to who built this apartment to tell me who fitted the flooring and what’s under it. Surprisingly 3 days after I sent an email to their customer services I haven’t had any update yet.

    Kardean confirmed on the phone that their tiles shouldn’t be denting like that... again surprisingly they didn’t want to confirm that by email.

    So I guess the first move would be to get the building agent to come and check since everything inside the apartment is under warranty for 2 years
     
  17. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    So it is wood subfloor? I think you’re partly to blame for the furniture button type protectors, I have removed them from antiques reluctantly and put felt pads on. Maybe the installers didn’t advise you or the furniture was not there.

    Not sure what builder can do other than confirm there are indentations. Without knowing exactly what’s underneath we can’t say what’s adding to the excessive indentations.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. DrKevin

    DrKevin Well-Known Member

    That’s why I am trying to get the builder to tell me what’s underneath.

    For the furniture is could agree that these are inevitable (sofa etc) - but what about my standard kitchen chair? They shouldn’t be making indents so easily I think

    I just got the answer on what the subfloor is from one of the workers on site: he says that the karndean is glued directly on cement.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 28, 2018
  19. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    Did he say “cement”? That’s when it is poured. Concrete is when it’s set/hard. Just wondering that persons competency level.

    Is there shoe molding or quarter round down along the baseboard? If you could remove molding and pry a piece up slightly to take a picture it may help to identify possible issue. Pressure sensitive adhesive if used will remain tacky and you can press flooring back in place.

    Or, you could pull that severely dented piece up since it needs replacing anyway. Have it out before the “builder” to see what’s going on. There is a gap alongside I believe. I would also get an exact adhesive used and the size of the notches on trowel if used. Then get install instructions on the adhesive from the net.

    To remove plank you could possibly use a hair dryer to heat and release pressure sensitive adhesive. Karndean May have a transitional hard set adhesive which the heat may not release.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  20. DrKevin

    DrKevin Well-Known Member

    My bad, he said concrete.

    I am a bit reluctant to remove a tile right now since they will probably argue that I touched the tile and that it is now out of warranty!

    I will first try my best to figure out who installed the flooring and how they did it ! Because there is no really point to replace the tile now if the next one will dent too.

    Thanks a lot for your professional advice !
     
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