Karndean Glue Down - dents from furniture, gaps, blotches, telegraphing!

Discussion in 'Vinyl Flooring Q&A' started by JHans, Dec 1, 2017.

  1. Tom Potter

    Tom Potter I Support TFP

    Not sure if it was mentioned already on the previous million page's of this post because im too tired to read it all. But thats alot of thin sheets of plywood put together for your subfloor. If all aren't secured good then there's movement somewhere. If something is moving 3 sheets deep it effects all of it. 1/2 plywood deflects on 16" joists. 2 layers of 1/2 plywood does the same unless pinned together with an a$$ ton of screws. Not just on the joists. Like every 3-4". My guess is its not secured together good enough and is showing all the symptoms of it.

    Im sure theres a lesson to be learned in all of this for everyone. I don't try to fly the plane to save money on a trip. And i also don't guarantee the passengers a safe trip if im not flying it.
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2017
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  2. JHans

    JHans Well-Known Member

    You mean the 3 layers of plywood? 1/2", 1/2", and 5/8"?
    I would expect to see cracks in the floor patch at the joints of plywood if it was moving, no?
  3. JHans

    JHans Well-Known Member

    Interesting thought about the voids, but that would have to be pretty coincidental, as all four legs of the dresser left indents.

    They only took a reading from the first layer when they installed. I have been trying to get that number from them :)
  4. JHans

    JHans Well-Known Member

    So where exactly did we go wrong with the underlayment? Ours is BCX "UL". I assume that means it is underlayment approved. Yes, 5/8" is an uncommon choice BUT no one has told me why that would be at fault.
  5. Chris 45

    Chris 45 Director of P.R. on some deserted island. I Support TFP

    Look up what the letter grades mean for plywood. X is for exterior. Completely different adhesives are used for exterior rated products. I’d hardly call that underlayment grade for something like LVP. Maybe underlayment grade for siding? But since I don’t do siding, I wouldn’t know.
  6. SteveG

    SteveG Pro Member

    I was going to say something similar, but it is interesting that when you dig around for this information you get conflicting answers. The American Plywood Association published this which seems to indicate BC would be fine, but talk to anyone actually in the trade and we all seem to go with Halex or similar. If a customer asked me to use BCX plywood to underlay LVP I would tell them no.
  7. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    HELL no?

    We don't cheap out on plywood underlayment as there's not a plug nickel to be saved. The cheap and sloppy stuff takes more time to install, prep and increases the callback/repair %s

    Like adhesives and floor patch it's just not a place to contemplate savings by buying discount, second rate or ANYTHING less than premium materials. You will pay much more in the long run for every dime you save on materials costs in labor costs, headaches and lost customer trust.
  8. JHans

    JHans Well-Known Member

    OK, let's assume the plywood used wasn't appropriate, and that the two installers we cleared the choice with were wrong. Where would we see evidence of this under the LVP? Would the patch be cracked from movement? What else would we see?
    Our moisture content seems fine given a quick google search.
    Our patch isn't cracked. Not under where the gaps are and not under the sunken joint areas. :hu:

    Again, assuming plywood isn't correct, what to do now? Would a different type of flooring be better? Can we salvage ours with LVP?

    Still waiting on Karndean results of tests.
  9. JHans

    JHans Well-Known Member

    So the adhesive in the plywood is rated for "exposure" to moisture in the short term, right? Like if you left the plywood outside and it was rained on, it would be OK in the short term.
    I guess I am just confused as to why this was approved by two installers if, as everyone here is clearly saying, it is WRONG. Did I get the two worst installers?
  10. Chris 45

    Chris 45 Director of P.R. on some deserted island. I Support TFP

    No, just 2 installers that didn’t know when to walk away.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  11. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Sounds like many installers whose viewpoint is..." I did not install the underlayment so its not my problem" let me make a couple hundred quick bucks!
    • Agree Agree x 2
  12. JHans

    JHans Well-Known Member

    They didn't have to walk away, they just had to tell us to use something else. We had it approved before we installed it.
  13. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Most installers don't know the difference, they just use whatever the retailer provides. Question how could they approve the UL installation until after it was installed?
  14. JHans

    JHans Well-Known Member

    The plywood is what the retailer would have provided us. So we cleared that with retailer prior to install, who cleared with installer (who you're saying wouldn't have known different anyway?). Then we installed it. Then the retailer came out to inspect installation and take moisture readings about 2 weeks before laying the lvp, then came out the day of install and took more readings and checked install again (in case it moved?)
    I'm using retailer and installer the same, as they are the same company with in house installers. Both retailer and installer were there for inspection and install. And both were consulted on plywood choice prior to install.

    Another retailer actually approved it as well, because we got two quotes from two different companies. And talked to them about what underlayment to use. Both said what we chose was good.
    Both are reputable companies.
  15. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain Owner/Founder Administrator

    It's an unfortunate fact that most of us who have been around this flooring business for many years have met and worked with a lot of installers that are there just for a paycheck. They aren't interested in training or research and many don't even take the time to read the instructions. Once they learn the basics and can do some of the tasks in their sleep, they have little interest in continuing their education and never develop the passion for their craft that some of us do. There are more "flooring professionals" like that than we care to admit. The most difficult part for some of us is that the consumer doesn't know the difference, partly because they have been lulled into thinking flooring installation is just a laborer's job. Afterall, places like Home Depot give our skills away for free all the time.
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  16. JHans

    JHans Well-Known Member

    Thought I'd offer an update. Karndean tested the planks and determined that there was insufficient glue transfer to the planks and that is causing the gaping. My retailer/installer doesn't agree and has asked a Karndean Rep to come inspect the floor with them.
    This doesn't surprise me after a few on here have mentioned that they thought the glue could be a problem - both that the roller wasn't heavy enough and they put the glue down on the entire floor and then went and laid planks (instead of small sections), so the glue may have gotten past "tacky" in those areas that were glued first and laid last (which happen to be the worst areas).
    Anyway, if anyone was interested.
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  17. Daris Mulkin

    Daris Mulkin The One and Only Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Thanks for the update. We always like updates be they good or bad. It helps us by learning the reason.


    • Agree Agree x 2
  18. Mark Brown

    Mark Brown On The Surface Flooring I Support TFP

    Glue transfer is a VERY important issue when wet setting planks. I would tend to agree with Karndean but moat of all thanks a lot for the update!!
  19. JHans

    JHans Well-Known Member

    Final update....
    Karndean and our installer/retailer finally came to an agreement on how to proceed. They gave us two options. 1. Replacing it with Korlok, as they claim that they are seeing gaping more and more and don't want to replace with glue down because of the risk. 2. Refund our entire cost.
    We are going with #2, as we are not interested in Korlok.

    As an aside, another issue with the install came to light recently...they didn't use the correct trowel when applying the glue. So they didn't patch correctly, didn't use correct trowel size for glue, perhaps waited too long to lay the planks after glue because they did an entire room, and then used a roller that was too light.

    Another aside, Karndean confirmed that our subfloor and underlayment were fine. So 5/8" BC plywood is fine, according to Karndean, as underlayment. Even on top of two layers of 1/2" plywood. So we are confident that wasn't causing any of our issues with gaping or telegraphing.
    I am not sure how Karndean and the installer are splitting the blame or cost. I just thought I should update for those that were so helpful when trying to figure this all out. THANK YOU to everyone who offered their 2 cents!
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2018
    • Appreciation Appreciation x 2
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  20. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Thank you for giving us an update
    Most people never come back with a result which means nobody ever finds out what went wrong to prevent others falling into the same trap
    As a PS I would have liked to have a look at your floor to have a guess what actually happened
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