Karndean Glue Down - dents from furniture, gaps, blotches, telegraphing!

Discussion in 'Vinyl Flooring Q&A' started by JHans, Dec 1, 2017.

  1. JHans

    JHans Well-Known Member

    I had Karndean Van Gogh glue down installed in May. In Sept. the installer came out to "fix" problems where the planks had gaps, and an area where the plywood joint was telegraphing through the planks. Since then both the gaps and the telegraphing joints have come back worse than before. We can see every plywood joint. But when they pulled up a few planks to fix the joints it wasn't as if the patch had sunk into the joint - that was level. At least as far as we could see.

    The installer has sent in a few planks to Karndean for "testing" to see why they are shrinking and ending up with gaps. Humidity, temperature, moisture, etc are all within ranges. We are in a holding pattern with Karndean to see what they say about the planks. But regardless of that issue the telegraphing joints and trowel swipes will be addressed - just not sure how.

    But my latest problem is with furniture indenting the vinyl! I have a small dresser that left indents where the feet are. I can lift that dresser myself - it isn't made of lead. Is this normal? Will it rebound (hasn't for two weeks)?

    Between all of these problems and the matte finish showing every little footprint, oil mark, water mark, etc I am going insane. The oil marks from just walking on the floor with socks on are enough to make me regret my choice. If we have to rip it up i'm considering going a different direction. Maybe the Art Select line of Karndean that doesn't have the matte finish. But worried about same telegraphing and gaping. Or maybe back to the good ol' laminate/engineered wood.

    I attached a few pictures of the problems. The gaps are so bad you can fit a quarter in them in some spots.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Dec 1, 2017
  2. Mark Brown

    Mark Brown On The Surface Flooring I Support TFP

    What was this product installed on as far as underlayment??

    I have had a few complaints about the matte finish with karndean, it is not user friendly. Unfortunately it sells well.

    Those indents will not come come out, you MIGHT be able to heat it and roll them out but I give 100 to 1 odds against. I cannot help but think the underlayment is soft. As for the gapping...... well, that's a mystery.
  3. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    Since I was not there during the install I can only guess. It's not rocket science.

    Q. Why would plywood seams "telegraph" through a resilient flooring?
    A. Low rent floor prep.
    (1) low rent floor patch material
    (2) watered down the mixture
    (3) need 2-3 coats on the seams and got only 1-2
    (4) low rent plywood/OSB/"luaan" curled from the watered down floor prep material

    Q. Why do vinyl planks shrink----most commonly on the end joints?
    A. Failure to follow BASIC handling instruction.
    (1) site and material properly acclimated.
    (2) adhesive not properly applied
    (A) improper trowel notch
    (B) improper "working time"
    (C) 100 or 75 lbs. roller not properly used.
    (3) substrate not adequately swept and vacuumed.

    There's a LOT more that could go wrong but it's almost ALWAYS installer error.

    Sorry guys. I calls 'em as I sees 'em.
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  4. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    Don’t sorry me, Bravo you!

    For stability that is why I like another layer of underlayment If nailed/I stalled properly reduces movement.
  5. JHans

    JHans Well-Known Member

    Thanks for all the responses. Here are a few "answers" to statements/questions.
    Floor prep:
    We used sanded 5/8" grade BC plywood as underlayment. This was put on top of 1/2" plywood.
    I attached a pic of the floor patch they used.
    My husband claims they only did one coat of floor patch on the joints. THIS SEEMS TO BE A BIG ISSUE.....
    We pay almost $3/square foot for floor prep!?!

    The planks were in the areas they were laid for 2+ weeks prior.
    House was kept at about 70 degrees.
    Substrate was only swept. There are places where the planks seem to have a small bubble - and I suspect that there is small debris under there.

    When the installers/salespeople came back to pull a few planks for testing, they took their shoes off and walked around in socks. I had just cleaned the floor 20 min before they came and it was spotless. They were appalled at how disgusting it looked after they simply walked on it with socks.
    I am so sad I chose this flooring. The problems just keep rolling in.

    Attached Files:

  6. Mark Brown

    Mark Brown On The Surface Flooring I Support TFP

    if you used plywood as an underlayment then there is all of your problems. Plywood is not an acceptable underlayment for vinyl plank... unless it is underlayment grade plywood.
    • Like Like x 1
  7. JHans

    JHans Well-Known Member

    It was approved by the installer and is listed in the materials as acceptable for the product we installed. We triple checked.
  8. Mark Brown

    Mark Brown On The Surface Flooring I Support TFP

    5/16 or 5/8 because I have not heard of a lot of 5/8 underlayment.
  9. Chris 45

    Chris 45 Director of P.R. on some deserted island. I Support TFP

    BC is an exterior grade sanded face plywood. Most, if not all, flooring calls for underlayment grade plywood.
  10. JHans

    JHans Well-Known Member

    It is 5/8".
    I have my husband on the search for where it was stated what we used is appropriate. The retailer/installer confirmed it was appropriate. Not sure....

    What is not good about what we used, assuming it was in fact wrong as you say? You think that is the source of the telegraphing joints, gaps, etc? Even though they only did one coat floor patch?
    Thanks everyone!
  11. Chris 45

    Chris 45 Director of P.R. on some deserted island. I Support TFP

    I think the cause of the telegraphing underlayment seams goes beyond how many coats of prep they did or didn’t apply.
  12. Mark Brown

    Mark Brown On The Surface Flooring I Support TFP

    exterior grade plywood has different adhesives and layering. Different material and more voids. Underlayment grade is manufactured to strict guidelines set by flooring manufacturere's and the plywood industry.
  13. Chris 45

    Chris 45 Director of P.R. on some deserted island. I Support TFP

    Let’s move past the point of what type of plywood was used. Let’s say instead of 5/8” plywood, a layer of 3/8” plywood was used then that was capped with a layer of 1/4” underlayment grade plywood. Just doing that alone would have given better results. Hit the seams with a palm sander then a coat of FF. Palm sand again once dry usually there are some spots that require a second touch up. Even using luan or the cheap 5mm stuff from HD would have yielded better results than what you have now. And what dumb ass splits a sheet of UL right down the middle of the hallway:eek: That’s just asking to be seen.
  14. JHans

    JHans Well-Known Member

    That dumbass was me, LOL. It is a 6'2" wide hallway. In hindsight should have laid sheets the other way, and wasted the 1'10" but oh well.
    The other seams show too. Everywhere.

    Our plywood is labeled as "agency certified as underlayment". We looked at the APA guidelines for underlayment and ours qualifies, as far as we understand. Not sure where to go from there except the installer gave the OK, said it qualified for warranty coverage. I have no idea at this point...

    Also, they did not sand the seams after patching.
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  15. Chris 45

    Chris 45 Director of P.R. on some deserted island. I Support TFP

    I get it now. Im going to say that some basic errors were made with installing the underlayment. It goes down hill from there.

    Question: You installed the underlayment? Then the installers showed up, prepped it then installed the LVP? And you paid $3/ sq ft for them to prep your underlayment that you installed?
  16. JHans

    JHans Well-Known Member

    We installed underlayment - yes. We paid $3/sq foot for install and prep - sorry, that wasn't clear. If I look at quote sheet we paid about $1/sq foot for prep.

    What are the basic errors in install?
  17. Chris 45

    Chris 45 Director of P.R. on some deserted island. I Support TFP

    Ok. Those prices sound reasonable. I thought you were just getting straight hosed. Shoot, you still may be... How well did the underlayment joints flush out after you were done installing it? Assuming they were all flush, if you lay a level across it, are the sheets level with each other or is there a crown at the joint. If you laid a level across your hallway, is there a crown in the middle? Did the installer take any moisture readings? Vapor barrier installed under the house?

    Splitting underlayment down the middle of a crowned hallway allowes the potential to have a high center that will show much more than if you side shotted the underlayment. 5/8 doesn’t have much give so it will peak. If it’s bad enough, sanding before prep, prepping and sanding again may still leave you with a visible ridge right down the middle of the hallway. As opposed to a gradual crown from side to side that doesn’t have a definite single visual line. The pic of the joint in front of the slider is also a hot spot. Light shining in accentuates everything especially when you have some distance to view the problem from.

    Now it could be that your underlayment wasn’t bad at all and the installer just didn’t exercise due diligence with his prep. I wasn’t there so I don’t know. It is a very real possibility. Regardless, it all starts with how well of a job is done installing the underlayment. The better the underlayment, the less prep necessary and prep will only get you so far. Ideally I like to get my underlayment so it needs as little sanding and prep as possible even though they need sanding and prepped all the time. I mention this because I hate when I run into a half assed install of underlayment and someone thinks that I can just put a little FF on the seam and it will disappear as if prep fixes everything. Some jobs just can’t be saved.

    Whatever the case, I do believe that you have a legitimate issue with the underlayment seams. Maybe a little of this, maybe a little of that. If the underlayment was that bad or improperly installed, it’s our job as professionals to say something. Once we touch it, we own it. I really hate to sell my own kind down the river but ultimately we are the final QC. What does the store that you purchased this from say?

    As far as the furniture dents, put some cups or protectors under the feet.
  18. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Got a couple of questions for you guys to ponder over
    1 Why did it take three months for the joints to telegraph?
    If as has been said that there was no sanding of the underlayment joints prior to laying. To me any ridges would have shown straight away if the joints were not flat not at a later time
    2 Why has the telegraphing got worse over time? Has been mentioned the layer went back to repair and the telegraphing is worse now
    Can not blame the layer for that, back to my response above
    There is something strange going on with the underlayment, maybe lack of blow through ventilation under the house or a water leak which could be running under the underlayment?
    3 I wonder what the cleaning method of the Karndean planks is?
    Steam mop?
    Chris and I were typing at the same time
  19. Chris 45

    Chris 45 Director of P.R. on some deserted island. I Support TFP

    Good point , Jon. If the underlayment and prep was good at the time of completion, I would suspect moisture somewhere. Taking moisture readings and ensuring that there is a vapor barrier is definitely part of installing underlayment.
  20. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Chris I don't think the layer installed the underlayment so that could be a different ball game

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