IVC over mosiac ceramic tiles, commercial site

Discussion in 'Vinyl & Rubber Flooring Sales and Installations' started by mcbrides, May 27, 2012.

  1. mcbrides

    mcbrides Canadian Installers Senior Member

    We have been asked to take a look at a commercial bathroom where the customer wants to have IVC installed over existing mosiac ceramic tiles which have uglied out.

    We know that conventional floor levelers won't bond sufficiently to the tile. We are asking for feedback here for the most appropriate methods and products to get this done properly.

    We are taking a look at it tomorrow. We won't know until then if it is more appropriate to strip the tiles out. It isn't a large bathroom, there are only two toilet stalls.

    Looking for constructive opinions, please.

  2. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Deb we have done a lot of covering over old ceramic tiles as the owners don't like the cold tiles.
    I use a smoothing compound which you mix with a "milk" not water. It does take a few coats though
  3. Gary W

    Gary W Pro Member

    You should be able to prep it out. Use the milk in the mix to assure adhesion of prep to tile.
  4. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

  5. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    We'd use this

    ARDEX Engineered Cements

    Something I've done.....long ago over Saltillo tiles-------was to paint on solvent based contact cement as a primer. If you go this route use plenty of ventilation. The contact cement will bond like hell to the ceramic/mosaic and cementitious floor patch will bond great to the contact.

    Whatever primer you use you'll first sand off the surface of the tiles with a heavy grit paper on a heavy sander/buffer. I'd take a wire brush wheel on a high speed drill motor to the grout lines to get any sealers off there as well just to be safe. Shop vac is really going to be a necessity in this instance, if you don't already vacuum everything before prep.

    Dont miss the drying time on the P-82 if you go with that. It calls for a minimum of 3 hours and a maximum of 24 hours before you prep over it. So you'll need to bid and schedule accordingly. That kind of precludes install the same day if you're working 8 hours or so per day on site.
  6. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    I would be looking at a product which has a lot coarser sand than feather finish. We have a product called Roberts 45 but I mix it with "milk" instead of water, then finish it with maybe feather
  7. mcbrides

    mcbrides Canadian Installers Senior Member

    Thanks, guys. All your input has been great.

    This job is for a new shop to us, the salesman has already quoted the labour and has allowed 2 days for installation (which isn't scheduled yet). The beauty of it is that the job is less than five minutes from home.

    We are a little reluctant to put our faith in just a laytex additive for bonding. We've seen milk-based patch delaminate from ceramics (and also painted concrete) in the past.

    I really like the Ardex P-82 Primer, and have to check availability here. I'm sure that the installer supply we deal with will have access to the product, if it is not presently in stock.

    I do hope that these tiles are so worn out that a sanding won't be necessary.

    Of course, we really have to take a look at the site, can't figure out the technical on any job without seeing it.

    Will take the camera with us tomorrow and will report our findings.

    Thanks again, boys. ;)
  8. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    Sanding the surface is typically just a light buzz to clean and scuff it up on regular tiles. I would ALWAYS sand the floor no matter what, only question being how intensely/how long and hard am I leaning into the machine. I ASSUME there's crap on there i don't want to try to bond to even with P-82/. We're talking 20-30 minutes tops on a small toilet with 2 stalls.

    In the case of the Saltillo tiles they are typically VERY porous so we find them with multiple HEAVY coats of sealer. The job we used the contact cement as a sealer was slightly below grade/ ground floor of an old building being converted into a YMCA homeless shelter in Pasadena. There were 3-4 floors above if I recall correctly about 6K s/y. I only worked a few weeks on the job and was involved in a lot of the prep including laying over the tile. We laid Forbo Marmoleum over this floor--------a bad idea in ANY basement but it did hold up for many years. I was in the area 10 years after and poked my head in. It wasn't PERFECT but pretty darn good for 10 years old. Some moisture was getting at the lino and there was some curling here and there, only so much that a floor guy would ever notice.
    Last edited: May 27, 2012
  9. stullis

    stullis Charter Member Senior Member

    Commercial bathroom and IVC ... words that should never go together. :ohno:
  10. Jackreed

    Jackreed jackreed Charter Member

    Why not most of them have a commercial warranty?:yesss::eh::p
  11. stullis

    stullis Charter Member Senior Member

    So do most laminates. ;)

    It does make a difference in what the customer expectations are but it this case it sounds like this is a high use bathroom that would be better served with new ceramic.

    It may even be a code requirement if they have those in Canada.
  12. ortiz34

    ortiz34 2nd generation Senior Member

    IVC can go over anything, do anything, babysit your children, cleans itself, no prep.

    Plus I have a bridge to sell :cool:
  13. kylenelson

    kylenelson You'll find me on the floor I Support TFP Senior Member

    IVC has a new-ish commercial line, it's actually pretty decent. I did an state run engineering building in the stuff a couple of weeks ago. Not built like the other IVC lines though, much less "foamy". It was a pleasure to work with...which is something you won't hear me say often about IVC.
  14. mcbrides

    mcbrides Canadian Installers Senior Member

    We did the walk-through and have found a suitable patch primer at the local supply house. There are two commercial toilets that we are not familiar with and won't pull ~ the customer is all hung up on that one, now having to go to the expense of a plumber. Don't know if this one is going to fly or not ...
  15. brett chaltry

    brett chaltry Pro Member

    throw them an estimate double of plumber problum solved
  16. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Why not just cut the vinyl around them?
    We get lots of pans cemeted in which will break if they are removed
  17. ortiz34

    ortiz34 2nd generation Senior Member

    fwiw last I checked IVC "can" be cut around a hopper

    Also their new Techno/Astro lines are pretty good commercial pieces IMO, much more sturdy, less cushion.
  18. mcbrides

    mcbrides Canadian Installers Senior Member

    There is too much surface prep to be done to leave those stools in place.
  19. stullis

    stullis Charter Member Senior Member

    Call the plumber for the customer, find out what they would charge to R&R the toilets, add a markup to their charge and include it in your estimate. Then hire and pay the plumber if you get the project. ;)
  20. mcbrides

    mcbrides Canadian Installers Senior Member

    It was the plumbing charge that made the customer choke in the first place ... found out today that one of their commercial guys was willing to take it on. Good for him, let him take responsibility for the plumbing. There are lots of other gigs available to us.

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