Is it time for required certification?

Discussion in 'Industry News, Training & Organizations' started by RFI, Dec 11, 2011.

  1. RFI

    RFI Mr. Nefarious Senior Member

    This topic has been discussed many times and hopefully more in the future. Bashing and degrading any member of our industry is not my goal. Our goal should be to make a change for the better.

    The more we discuss this, the more we communicate, the more we will understand the issues.

    With the continual dialog and the exchanging of ideas, alliances can be formed to break through barriers.

  2. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Tarus are you a member of WFCA, CFI or any other such groups. How many of the CFI conventions have you attended. CFI busts their rears trying to make installers better. We have many CFI members here and they do a great job.

    I can see you are very passionate about this, so NOW DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Where do you want to start. Be our leader.
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2011
  3. Taurus Flooring

    Taurus Flooring Over 30yrs Experience

    Tandy, I live in Canada and to be honest with you, I have never seen any representation of either organization. I looked up CFI's site and checked out the member listing for Canada and guess what, there wasn't any. My impression of both groups was that they had other agendas. I'm not proposing training, there are lots out there that provide this service (although it's few and far between here in Canada). I'm not really sure how to make it work, but something has to change. Up here rates are dropping like flies and some of the workmanship is laughable. The contractors and retailers are taking advantage of skillful installers by not increasing rates accordingly, instead, they drop them.
    The ones that really suffer from all this, is the consumers. Just yesterday, I went and had a look at a shower which was leaking. It turns out the installer used Dap instead of silicone to seal around the shower door and at the base of the curb. Leaked so bad, the whole shower has to be replaced. It's only about 5 years old. No wonder rates are so bad.
    Sorry to rant on so much about this, but I've been at this game since the sixties and nothing seems to improve.
  4. RFI

    RFI Mr. Nefarious Senior Member


    No need to apologize for venting, for I am seeing the same things you are. It is very frustrating and it hurts all of us. The workmanship that I have been seeing is appalling and what makes it should never have happened.

    At times it gets very discouraging to see this. I would think at some point the consumer is going to realize that floorcoverings are not worth the cost and a acceptable alternative will be developed. For instance look at all the stores now going to stained concrete. At one time they were all vct. Maybe that is the natural evolution of our industry, but I cannot help think that bad installations were some small part of the change. Sure there were other factors involved too, but that is a loss to our industry.

    I am not so naive to think that there will not be changes to our industry, but there is no point in helping to facilitate our own demise!

  5. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Taurus, it is easy to see your passion and fusteration with installation conditions in Canada. I wish there was a magic wand that could be waved and correct the situation in Canada and the USA, there is not. Therefore, we have to try to make change the old fashion way- - -with humans. That means me and you.

    Email CFI and WFCA and see if they can help you start a movement in Canada. CFI did not start here with overwhelming sucess. Jim Walker almost got tared and feathered in several places he spoke including Tulsa. Others got interested and started working and today we have CFI here to stay.

    They I am sure face obsticals every day, but they keep on keeping on and there are gradual improvements in the industry.

    Keep that passion and don't give up. Do not let your voice be quited.

    I admire you and your spunk keep it up my friend.:yesss:
  6. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Excellent points Taurus, unfortunately it is already in place, but too few installer will take advantage of it.

    It is called CFI!!
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 12, 2011
  7. Chris Mha

    Chris Mha Charter Member Senior Member

    I was one that attended Building Bridges in Tulsa a few years back. While the attendance was relatively small, I think there was some great dialog between the installers and the inspectors.

    Perhaps we could start organizing another conference to address and discuss Taurus's great thoughts on this subject. Let's see what kind of a response we can get. Try to come up with a central location or locations and invite installers, retailers, inspectors and manufacturers.
  8. Taurus Flooring

    Taurus Flooring Over 30yrs Experience

    As you can see, it's something that has been burning my ass for a long time. I've discussed this with untold amount of installers up here all to no avail. They've even basically have stopped having seminars because nobody shows up. The reasons are many and complicated. Rather then pulling together, they stab you in the back. I hate to say it, but a lot of it has to do with new immigrants. They are hungry for work and will do it for a lot less. It's becoming quite an issue too, because I get calls from customers wanting someone who can speak english. I don't have a problem with them, but they do need to fit in. My guess is, it will be a long time before we see a solution.
  9. Roland Thompson

    Roland Thompson Charter Member Senior Member

    If you want it to change you need to get involed. What most installers say is, what is it going to do for me? I tell them nothing if you do not do anything different, or if you do nothing to make it better.
  10. Canuck

    Canuck Pro Member

    As an installer with no certification or training I agree there should be change. I only deal in hardwood and laminate and don't know many of the issues that are encountered with other flooring products. I do know that the one store I work for has carpet installers coming from Toronto everyday to install for them, which is at a minimum a 60 minute drive and could take a couple hours if there is an accident on the highway. There is only one reason they do! From what I hear the rates in Toronto are so low it's worth the time to drive here. The reason the rates are so low is mainly due to foreign installers undercutting the rates. So do you blame the installers for trying to survive or do you blame the stores for trying to get EVERYTHING done as cheap as possible. The joke at the store was "the [immigrant] guys would install hardwood on a gravel driveway if you told them to". So does the problem lie with the manufacturer, the store, or the installer...not sure but the problem is called GREED.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2011
  11. stullis

    stullis Charter Member Senior Member

    OFC Occupy Floor Covering ;)
  12. kylenelson

    kylenelson You'll find me on the floor I Support TFP Senior Member

    I can completely understand from the retail side of things why shops would have to lower installation rates to compete. Especially if they're not offering any difference in quality from the guy across the street willing to get it installed at half the price. Obviously we all know the problems that stem from this, but it's been a rough few years for retailers trying to stay afloat. A lot of business owners are losing money right now just to keep the doors open until things turn the corner. On the flipside, we all know this is only hurting them with poor quality installations and less repeat business in the long run, but the reality is that they have to pay the bills THIS month.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2011
  13. Nate Hall

    Nate Hall Types With toes I Support TFP Senior Member Published

    WOW! So sorry to have missed this thread yesterday! The problems are many, and varied, to be sure. The solutions are going to need to be the same. CFI can only do so much, with out cooperation from the WHOLE indutry. I believe that its the competitive business model that is at the root of most of our industies problems. A little cooperation could help things greatly. Unfortunately when one cooperates today one tends to get taken advantage of.
    Building bridges, or building an organization for installers is a fabulous idea. Who pays for it? The most crippling problem is the funding. When a big company puts up lots of cash, they want to make the rules, and/or have exceptions made on their behalf. Try to get an installer to put money into an organization instead of paying his bills and you will quickly see how the funding is the most crippling of problems. POH! Iknow, just tell him/her that the organization will pay his/her bar-tab.;)
  14. Taurus Flooring

    Taurus Flooring Over 30yrs Experience

    What I find curious about this subject, is where are the manufacturers? You would think that they would weigh in with their 2 cents. Afterall, it's their product that we're installing. If I owned a manufacturing company, I'd be very concerned about how things are going. Can't they see that a poor installation of their products will deter customers from buying their goods? The average citizen has no idea if it's the result of poor installation or bad quality product. If you buy a new car and it breaks down, you don't blame the employees on the line do you? They need to step up to the plate and help us. :doh:
  15. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    I follow some of your thinking, but carry it on through. If you buy a Chevy and it breaks down and is a lemon, it has Chevy writen all over it, you can take it back to a Chevy dealer.

    Ya buy carpet and it has no name written on it to advertise who made it, nor is there a specific dealer who ONLY sells that brand.

    Does that engender a feeling of LESS responsibility? :hu:
  16. Taurus Flooring

    Taurus Flooring Over 30yrs Experience

    RG, thanks for the input, but I think you may have missed the point
  17. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    My point was that there seems to be a LACK of responsibility, on the part of MFG. and installers.

    What was your point?
  18. Taurus Flooring

    Taurus Flooring Over 30yrs Experience

    My point is, if McD wants to sell more burgers, they won't have drunken fools serving. They make sure they have presentable staff and quality, tasty food. If they were to let staff compete for jobs by lowering their pay and sacrificing quality, how long do you think they would stay in business? Do you think blaming it on the staff would help them? Yes, the staff does need to take some responsibility, but let's face it, it's all about making a decent living isn't it? Bottom line is, if you get paid less, you need to work more, but there are only so many hours in a day, so something has to give. :rolleyes:
  19. RFI

    RFI Mr. Nefarious Senior Member

    I can understand why both Manufacturers and Sales people will not post here or on any other board. More then likely they will get attacked and feel it would be useless.

    I would love to see them post so we all can learn from it and work together to find solutions. Sure some have product issues, but I feel there are far more issues that are labor related.

    If we can just keep pushing forward with a quality business like attitude and show them we are interested in helping improve our industry, just maybe they will respond.

    Whether it be floorcovering manufacturers or tool and adhesive companies, they all should feel free to join in and participate.

    Don't shake you heads and laugh at me. You cannot make a difference if you do not try!

  20. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    I am not trying to be a jerk, but according to your "bottom line", how does that affect the manufacturer? What difference does McD's make?

    Sometimes less is in distill it down to one point at a time, you tend to ramble a bit. Of course it may just be my thick head!!!

    Sorry, no offense meant!!

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