Is it time for required certification?

Discussion in 'Industry News, Training & Organizations' started by RFI, Dec 11, 2011.

  1. RFI

    RFI Mr. Nefarious Senior Member

    What is your opinion? Is it time for Manufacturer required " Sales and Installation Certification" for their products?

    Personally, I would have to say yes. I feel it is the only way to reduce the issues in our industry. I also think it would raise profit margins too!

    You might notice that I added " Sales " to this too! My thoughts are not to pick on sales, but it would greatly " enhance " the quality of jobs if the sales department were required to have formal training in installation.

    What are your thoughts?

    Last edited: Dec 11, 2011
  2. Jon Thompson

    Jon Thompson Pro Member

    I totally agree but they need to do it right I personally use to be one of the guys that would get every certification I ccould but found out alot of manufactu certify the store your are working for or sent you there instead of the installer themselves. Which means the store sends their better mechanic to the class but when job comes around they send the hack that will do the job cheaper cause he has no idea what is involved but they got the job cause you passed the certifacation and the stores name is on the list of cetified installers.
  3. RFI

    RFI Mr. Nefarious Senior Member

    I know this subject has been discussed before. Many times! But over the last few weeks I have been hearing of a lot of flooring issues. Most installation and some sales. All needless issues that should not have happened. Which leads me to ask that question.

  4. Jon Thompson

    Jon Thompson Pro Member

    Please dont get me wrong here Im all for it IF it is done the right way I am ready to get rid of the hacks myself I get calls all the time "can you come and see if this is fixable" 99% of the time it is exactly as you say things that should not of happened
  5. Jackreed

    Jackreed jackreed Charter Member

    It is a good concept, but I think unreachable. I believe it would cut into sales for the flooring manufacturers. By this I mean the big boxes stores couldn't sell to the DIYers. If certifacation was required would two set of rules be used one for big boxes store and another for the hometown retailers.

    I don't think certifaction will happen, Unless a license is required like plumbers and electricians. I can't see this happening because lets face the dangers are not there like these trades.

    In my state you need plumbers or electricians license but not one for residential construction. I'm not sure about commercial but I don't think so.
  6. RFI

    RFI Mr. Nefarious Senior Member

    My goal is for everyone to give there opinion. It does not matter what it is and will be greatly respected!

    I just feel it is time for a major chance and shake up!
  7. RFI

    RFI Mr. Nefarious Senior Member

    Jack and others,

    Which do you thing create more sales? A good sales person with a very poor installation? Or A Great sales person and a great installation?

    Just a question. I think this is very interesting!

  8. polestretch

    polestretch Senior Member

    Rob, How would you police this?
  9. RFI

    RFI Mr. Nefarious Senior Member

    As far as I can see, the only way that you could police this would be by the mills. It would take effort on there part and probably at first be a very pain in the butt, but at some point there has to be a change.

    Any other ideas? how would you police it or make a noticable change?

  10. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    The mills could hire Mr. Nefarious!!!

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 11, 2011
  11. RFI

    RFI Mr. Nefarious Senior Member

    Sorry Rog................Could not help myself!

  12. polestretch

    polestretch Senior Member

    Do you really think the mills care about the installation of their product?:( I may be wrong, But I think they look at the bottom line and only the bottom line.:yesss: Every mill would have to be on board for that to work.:rolleyes:
    I don't see that happening.
  13. RFI

    RFI Mr. Nefarious Senior Member

    Actually I do. I know of two major mills flying out trouble shooters to clean up jobs because of bad installations. When I asked them why, their response was " we are worried about what our customers think of our product and us "

    This was not rumor, this came directly from the mill rep. Is this every mills attitude. Probably not, but it really got me to thinking.

  14. Steve Forbo

    Steve Forbo Pro Member

    Rob, It is absolutely great in theory......but.....
    Most consumers don't care. They simply expect the job to be done right upon signing the contract.
    Us insiders know the deal......but everyone on the outside could really care less.
    They tried that and are still doing that in my local union. The problem is that they are passing everyone, even if they are not qualified.
    I have spent many years going to certification programs and taking great pride in what I do. But from what I have seen out there, most of the installers don't give a s#@t......
    We have something here in Local 2287 called the "INSTALL" certification.
    I can summarize it in a few sentences....
    Install a 4x8 cubical with VCT and 2 small pieces of sheet goods. Also weld a 4 foot seam.
    Install a 4x4 area with VCT on a diagonal with one door jamb cut. You need to find the center of the 4x4 and swing an arc to find the 90 degree....LOL
    Then you need to flat scribe a piece of sheet goods on a 4x2 and pattern scribe a 4x2. After that, you simply weld a 4 foot seam in sheet vinyl. Total joke in my opinion....
    Then you are certified....
    The carpet one is also a joke.
    There are great certifications that you as an installer can learn from like the Forbo, Armstrong, Bruce, Amtico, Etc......But only true mechanics take those....
    I wish people really understood what goes into being a certified installer....
  15. kylenelson

    kylenelson You'll find me on the floor I Support TFP Senior Member

    I think it would be great if it was MANDATORY to get warranties on products installed. It would eliminate alot of the contractors nabbing work from flooring installers. It would also eliminate a ton of hacks out of the gate. I believe that it would also raise wages for flooring installers in the long run, rather than continually running them down into the ground.
  16. Taurus Flooring

    Taurus Flooring Over 30yrs Experience

    Do you guys have any idea how much money the mills make from replacing jobs because of installer defiencies? Even when in actual fact it was the manufacturer's fault. We're talking millions my brothers. Why would they kill that cash cow? As far as reputation of the mill, they don't care. Most clients would not even remember what brand they bought 2 minutes after they walked out of the store. If you don't believe me, why is it that most carpets don't have their brand name imprinted on the back of the carpet to remind the customer who made the carpet. Every other product out there has logo's every where and comes with a written warranty, another thing carpet manufacturers don't provide.
    The only way anything will change is if the installers started an association to guide the industry. It's up to us, we can make the whole industry come to a halt by not installing it anymore. Stores and contractors can sell all the carpet they want, but if they can't get someone to install it, they're screwed.
  17. Darren Ramey

    Darren Ramey Charter Member I Support TFP

    Back when I was younger and knew everything about everything, I would have balked at the thought, but as I have grown older and stupider, I have had a change of heart. I would love to see some sort of general competency test before letting people call themselves installers.

    I don't necessarily believe we need recertification every couple years. At least not with carpet unless it changes radically. I am more than capable of keeping up with new techniques and technologies from hanging out here, and generally just giving a crap. A test to keep the riff raff out, and proof of citizenship to keep illegals out would go a long way towards making the trade respectable again.

    It still wouldn't stop an installer from hiring a bunch of hacks to work for him without supervision though.
  18. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    What you are talking about is a noble idea, and cannot be forced on manufacturers, dealers, or installers.

    We attempted to get a uniteing program started called "Building Bridges", and only a few installers and inspectors attended. Every time a certifing program is put together, the majority of installers state they don't have time, or money to attend.

    We must first unite and help bring the entire industry together and quite looking at the manufacturer and dealer as the enemy.

    Now how do we do that? I know one way that won't work is to bad mouth them like has been done here.

    Always remember you can get more flies with honey than with vinegar.
  19. Barry Carlton

    Barry Carlton I Support TFP Senior Member Published

    I think if the manufacturers would take a page from Duradek's philosophy it could work. Duradek will not sell their product unless they know a trained installer will be doing the installation.....period.

    Bu, alas, we know that will always be the exception not the rule. :(
  20. Taurus Flooring

    Taurus Flooring Over 30yrs Experience

    Always remember you can get more flies with honey than with vinegar.[/QUOTE]

    The problem with that philosophy is that the manufacturers have been getting all the honey while we have been getting the vinegar. I believe the only way we'll get our fair share is by putting together an association for installers, where we share industry info, be in direct contact with the manufacturers and possibly even offer an extended warranty for the customers. Together we cannot be ignored and would have a strong voice. It would not guarantee that an installer would be good, but if he or she had enough bad jobs, would be thrown out of the association. Customers would recognize our expertise by our identity and what not and would come to understand the difference between a hack and a pro. We need to be separate from the manufacturers so that we retain the control of our organization. We could offer mediation for questionable work and receive fair treatment. If the fee was reasonable, all installers would be motivated to join and hopefully take part in it. This would not be a union, but just a way for installers to have some control of their business. The possibilities are endless. :yesss:

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