INSTALL's John McGrath, ANSI Installation Standards and Unionization

Discussion in 'Industry News, Training & Organizations' started by Barry Carlton, Mar 28, 2010.

  1. Isabella Flooring

    Isabella Flooring Pro Member


    I'll give you a quick veiw in what I mean By give and take,

    In a paragraph it states as follows,

    Be able to show proof of cleaning by hot water extraction(commonly called "steam" cleaning by a professional cleaning service or DO IT YOURSELF SYSTEM, using equipment and products certified under the Carept and Rug Institute's seal of approval program. Cleaning must be preformed at least once every 24 months. (visit Carpet and Rug Institute (CRI), for a listing of approved products

    Next paragragh

    NOTE: Professional service must be performed by an IICRC(institute Of inspection, Cleaning and Restoration Certifacation) certified firm You may contact the IICRC at **,

    Now you tell me where I can find a Do-it-Yourself cleaning system that are IICRC certified,

    And this is from a MAJOR MILL Warranty BOOK
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2010
  2. floorman67

    floorman67 One of THOSE Charter Member

    What Mill and/or what specific product warranty are you stating this from ?

    Is there another section of the warranty that give the purchaser "other" legal rights acknolegements ?

    If the carpet is cleaned properly, certification is not an issue, no matter what they say.

    There can be NO tie-in provisions that require the purchaser to purchase something else to validate the warranty (or keep it in force) unless they can demonstrate that the tie-in provision, to the satisfaction of the FTC, that the product will not work properly without a specified item or service.

    Yes they can show that clearning maintenance is a requirement to the longevity of the product, but they can not demonstrate it must be by certified personel because anyone can use the standards and clean the carpet properly.

    Contracts, guarantees, and warranties are often worded ambiguously and very lengthy to attempt to cover every possible outcome, but that does not mean 100% of it is valid for everyone in every state in every country, which is why they often include a disclaimer about "other" additional rights the purchaser may enjoy, becasue if they did get something wrong, that disclaimer may indemnify them and hold them harmless for such errors.

    Now, if you can show a case where they did not honor a warranty on a properly cleaned carpet using uncertified professionals who used the proper standards, then I think there is a major issue. Barring that, I do not think it's much of an issue just because they stated something ambiguous or contradictory. Inaccurate, confusing, or ambiguous sections warranties will not be legally enforcable if they break the law or FTC guidelines.

    Now, that said, if you clean it yourself or contract a non-certified cleaner to clean it, you better be darn sure its cleaned to the standards, or it very well may void the warranty if they can prove it was not cleaned properly.
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2010
  3. Peter Kodner

    Peter Kodner Inspector Floors Charter Member Senior Member

    A typo by the manufacturer or a transcription error by you? IICRC, to my knowledge, does perform the same function as the CRI program.
  4. floorman67

    floorman67 One of THOSE Charter Member

    I was thinking the exact same thing.

    Isabella should post the product and mill so we can look up the warranty.

    Not saying anyone was intentionally misrepresenting, but accuracy is important.
  5. Isabella Flooring

    Isabella Flooring Pro Member

    I corrected one part,

    Shaw Floors Residential Carpet Warrenty Information book, Page 29 #3.

    2 other things I like to point out,(1) When Customer is reading the SAMPLE, Does it say anything about proation schedule, Example year 15 after install soil issue comes up mill agrees, customer think he's getting replacement100 % amount replacement or PRORATION AMOUNT, and what is the PROATION amount be RETAIL or COST???

    (2) Law can be interpreted in the eyes of how one wants to read it or annotation of it. One of the reason there are so many Money Takking Law firms out their.
  6. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    Every shop has to have a license but their employees do not. Union workers are employees working for someone who does have a license.
  7. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    My license has been inactive since 2002. When I did jobs on the side it was in violation of my contract and you're right it's a conflict of interest. I know and have worked with all the business agents in my local. Union members scraping up a little side money isn't something they're going to make an issue. They all do it.
  8. John T McGrath Jr

    John T McGrath Jr Pro Member

    Hello Gentlemen. This is my first time on your website and I am very impressed. You have many opinions and you share them candidly. I respect that.

    I stopped reading after the 42nd entry but I would like to respond with my thoughts.

    I am sincerely proud that I belong to the Carpenters Union. Myself and my Family have benefited from the fruits of our Brotherhood, fair pay, health coverage, retirement package. I wish the same for all hard working installers.

    As in any man made group we have mistakes, we aren't perfect, but the idea of workers sticking together to help each other is a noble one.

    In the interview I promoted INSTALL. I believe in it and it would be misleading of me to speak differently. I knew that I would upset some people by being candid, but I feel it is more considerate to give an honest truth that may upset someone that to have them unpleasantly surprised later when the truth comes out.

    I'm a little disappointed with the Gentleman from Isabelle Floors. I apologize if I gave the impression of shrigging him off. That wasn't my intention. I tried to connect him with a local rep from the UBC. Our International Training Center and it's functions are paid for from labor & management trust funds and we have legal obligations to use those funds for the benefit of the contributors to the funds. Since he isn't a contributor it would have been patronizing of me to just say, "I'll see you at the conference." We did talk on the phone, and he has my cell number. I would have liked a call to tell me that he did not hear from anyone and then I would have tried to help.

    In closing, high standards will help all installers that care about quality. This is not a "Union Only" situation, hopefully it is a "Legitimately Certified Professional Only" situation.

    I wish you all well and can be reached through our website, [noparse][/noparse]. Thank You.
  9. Peter Kodner

    Peter Kodner Inspector Floors Charter Member Senior Member

    John, welcome here and I, for one, hope you return. Although I have not been an employer for a bit over 12 years, I always felt we had very good relationships with our local, 1185 in Chicago. From discussions over the years with my Dad, I was even more pleased as this was not always the case.

    The days when MARBA negotiated all the contracts for all the trades were coming to an end. The PFCIA in Chicago was one of the first, that I am aware of, that had a seat at the table as the employers of the flooring mechanics. I was very honored and pleased to serve as their representative on the Apprenticeship Training Program board for several years. I honestly believe the Washburn school did a great job in readying people (including several women we hired through the apprenticeship program). Nothing will ever replace the on the job experience for trades, but people came to us with some math skills as well as some hand skills which was a huge plus. The school did cut years off what I would have expected for a learning curve from a solely on site training program.

    It is truly good to hear the Brotherhood is looking to the future and fully understands the best competition is skilled competition. Raising the bar for the entire industry will only help those who earn their livelihoods from it by toiling in the trenches.

    Peter Kodner
  10. Barry Carlton

    Barry Carlton I Support TFP Senior Member Published

    Mr. McGrath, (John)
    I am the poor soul who started this thread. Whoops :eek:

    I am so very sorry this thread went so far south. Again :eek:

    I hope you can stay around and contribute when you feel you can. Thank you so much for posting.

    What are your thoughts on the posts by floorman67 and Peter Kodner and the legalities of the certification requirements to maintain warranties?

    My feeling is that a federal contractor's license/certification is the answer to where this seems to be going. (But I think that will never happen, or if it does it is far into the future) Again, just my opinion.

  11. Isabella Flooring

    Isabella Flooring Pro Member

    I would like to reply to what Mr.Grath's post,

    I did receive a phone call from him, I explained to him about what Isabella flooring is, and would like to see about an invite to his spring Flooring conference, I also stated to him I was into promoting certifacations, He stated that was great, we are talking the same language

    He asked where I was located, and told him I was in Central California, He did state I was on the cuff line of Northern and Southern Calif cut offs, He stated that I was most likely in the southern California region, And he would make a phone call to that regional rep. and get back to me I beleive that was Thursday March 25, Today is what, Wed. March 31, I also e-mailed him and Thanked him for his phone call, Haven't heard back from him or no-one

    In closing,

    I have done plenty of DLSE jobs and worked side by side with my Installations crews, at PRE-VAILLING wage jobs here, on them prevailling wage jobs, you have what they are called CERTIFIED PAYROLL, their has been plenty of .46 cents per hour apentice fee's paid to the union on my behalf to the painters allied union, and to be honest with you we have called the Union hall plenty of times to have an APPENTICE on the jobsite and they could never produce, because the lack off apprentice's in the union....

    I feel that their is nothing to be SORRY about on anyone's side, we all spoke on how we felt and Mr. McGarth has responded,

    I will stick with My CFI Certifacations and members with, and wait for the PUBLIC VEIW of the S-600, and state my objections when it is written
  12. Daris Mulkin

    Daris Mulkin The One and Only Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    It is my understanding that they are still haggling over the mills standards such as making carpet that is susposed to be 12 feet be 12 feet and be able to match patterns without going into the next pattern. Rolls being sent short, that sort of thing.
    I got the feeling that this is not going to be a quick process. As was stated everything has to go up before the public before it can pass. And only meeting every so many months.

  13. Isabella Flooring

    Isabella Flooring Pro Member

    guess i couldnt post the example so i have deleted everything tyo make tfp happy
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2010
  14. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain TFP Owner/Founder Administrator

    This, Copyright ©, should have given you a strong clue about whether to post that or not. If you post copyrighted material, you must have the permission of the copyright holder and link to the source of the information.

    Please get the proper permission and edit your post to include the link and the permission granted statement. You can edit your own posts for up to 24 hours.



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