INSTALL's John McGrath, ANSI Installation Standards and Unionization

Discussion in 'Industry News, Training & Organizations' started by Barry Carlton, Mar 28, 2010.

  1. strip buster

    strip buster my way is the best way. Charter Member

    but your speed would let you down and quality of work would get you deported and you would leave a broken man sobbing ,realising you are light years behind and need to learn a few new tricks.;) no straw hats here pal.
  2. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    As long as you've got beer and women out there in the Third World I think I could get by. I'll probably bring my own woman so just make sure they've got beer. You have refrigeration, right? I like mine cold. Floor laying is floor laying. I give it hell for 8 hours a day and them pack 'em up and drive home with a smile. Never a dissatisfied customer!

    (Will I be driving a car, a horse and buggy............or maybe a kangaroo?)
  3. Isabella Flooring

    Isabella Flooring Pro Member

    I would like to offer this,

    We all know that CRI 104-105 standards are MINIMAL Standards, and the courts have ruled on that (key wording here is MINIMAL) Along with the 2009 update which again is MINIMAL standard. There has not been a unified installation standard since CARPET has been made.

    We all get that,

    Now Once the S-600 gets written with an ANSI spec. This becomes a LEGAL document now. This is why the MILLS(carpet mills) have JUMPED aboard on the CONSENSUS BODY BOARD,(dont think that there is no ATTORNEYS watching what is going, dont kid yourself) They will be breaking down words like SHALL and SHOULD. If the S-600 gets written in a ANSI form, Theirs is not ONE law firm thats gonna tell you or state he can when this case, There might be some off the wall firms that might try, No matter what past law cases have proven the new ANSI will over rule. The Mills will Incorperate the ANSI specs. into and all there warranties. It's being done now

    example for you

    ABC motors replaced my Toyota excelerator device and ABC motors was accredited By Mr. GOODWRENCH, your gonna tell me Toyota has to stand behind Mr. Goodwrench's work, after it fails again and they where not cerified by Toyota.
  4. floorman67

    floorman67 One of THOSE Charter Member

    You would have to ask an attorney to research case law for that.

    Our only experienece with that has been many many years ago on a Forbo claim. The claim was initially denied (immediately and without any investigation), because the wording in the warranty stated Forbo required Forbo-certified installers and we were not Forbo Certified. The claim was for factory defective goods. We contacted our attorney. Our attorney researched and contacted Forbo. Forbo then wanted an inspection. The inspection report stated factory defective goods (so says the attorney who was quoting Forbo) and Forbo honored the claim. Our attorney stated it was against federal warrenty law for them to deny a claim against their warrenty just because we werent trained by Forbo - he stated it doesnt matter so long as it was properly installed and stated the legislation i referrenced.

    I have seen similar news items where manufacturers have allegedly denied claims for items bought online and they lost because it does not matter where you buy things or who installs things so long as they were properly installed the warranty must remain intact - I think its basic common sense consumer protection.

    Anyone who remembers the Forbo Warranty years and years ago will remember the requirement for Forbo Trained Installers, but that changed a few years back to only recommending them. NOW, any mention of them is completely removed from their warranty. Now it states, "when installed using Forbo's recommended procedures and adhesives". Thats a huge progressive change I feel accurately represents the issue, because part of the warranty act includes false and misleading statements in manufacturer warrenties.

    There will never be an ANSI specification that requires certification for installers unless the flooring industry is legislated to become like plumbers and electricians that require schooling and licensing. Bascially because there is no consumer health risk involved with flooring, so the civil courts and state/local codes compliance handles any problems.

    I think this is just alot of scare tactics and innuendo to force an agenda.
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2010
  5. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    You're right about so much but your analogy to the other trades misses one important point.

    If a wire, copper pipe, electrical switch or plumbing fixture fail the EXACT same legal principles would apply. Like you say, this is common sense. If you can show that an adhesive, patch, carpet, wood or resilient material is defective there's no "out" for the manufacturer of the flooring product any more than there would be any relevance to state licensed plumbers or electricians if their MATERIALS were blatantly substandard.

    In every state (not 100% sure on this) a home owner or general contractor without TRADE specific certification can choose to do their own work. The issue of a product failure needs to be distinguished from the issues related to improper methods of installation for the purposes of this discussion. I think people generally TRY to confuse these issues to suit their own purposes when both common sense and the law are very clear.

    In the case of this INSTALL program and the ANSI S-600 standards there's merely an attempt to institute some general principle of training and certification so manufacturers, customers, inspectors and retailers can to some extent rule out total incompetence and inexperience of the installer.

    How simple is that?
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2010
  6. Isabella Flooring

    Isabella Flooring Pro Member


    That was the most educated thing I have read from you........


    We all have to remember what ANSI stands for,(legal Document)

    American National Standard Act, After the S-600 is written with Ansi, I beleive they will go for ISO...
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 30, 2010
  7. rusty baker

    rusty baker Well-Known Member

    I talked to our code inspector. According to Missouri law, a homeowner can install plumbing, electrical, floorcovering etc. in their own home. As long as it is properly installed, the company has to honor the warranty on a defective product. If they get in the habit of denying warranties the Missouri AG will sue them. We have a very proactive Missouri AG's office. If a home owner can do it, I can't see them denying a professional noncertified installer from doing it.
  8. Peter Kodner

    Peter Kodner Inspector Floors Charter Member Senior Member

    ANSI is an acronym for American National Standards Institute which is not a government agency but a non for profit with a mission of consensus building for all nature of standards to benefit and improve American businesses.


    On the legal end:

  9. floorman67

    floorman67 One of THOSE Charter Member

    The context of me mentioning plumbers and electricions was not to compare them to product failures, but because they DO require schooling (certification) and licensing - to get that licensing you need to be certified. That isnt and will never be a LEGAL requirement for flooring becasue of no perceived health risk to the consumer (for flooring) unless legislators perceive a consumer health risk in flooring to require certification and licensing. I just do not see that ever occuring. Thats really the difference. Sorry if I confused the issue.

    Indeed, product defects MUST be distinguished separately from the installation - absolutely!

    Which is why installation certifications can never be tied into a product warranty when the product can be installed successfully by a non-certified workforce. There would be no reason - no need - It would insinuate claims denials based on unsubstanciated supposition and conjecture, and worst of all it would be a misleading and fraudulent warranty.
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2010
  10. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    I looked at the requirements for an electrical contractor's license (C-10) in the state of California and they are identical to what I needed for my flooring contractor's license (C-15)

    * An Electrical Contractors License in California is required for projects that exceed $500.
    * To become a licensed contractor, candidates will have to sit for two exams: business and law and their trade.
    * In order to sit for the examinations, the board must first approve your application.
    * Pre-approval from the state is required to sit for the examination.
    * Applicants are required to have 4 years experience to qualify to take the exam. Experience must be at the journeyman, foreman or supervisor, contractor, or as an owner-builder.
    * All applicants must have a working capital of at least $2,500. In addition, all applicants must also file a bond with the Registrar in the amount of $10,000.
    Contractor Licensing - California Electrical Contractor License (C-10)
  11. RFI

    RFI Mr. Nefarious Senior Member

    Are union installers required to have a contractors license? Are there any states that require union installers to have a contractors license or is it just the independent installers.

  12. rusty baker

    rusty baker Well-Known Member

    Some states don't license contractors. There are no state licenses here for flooring contractors. Plumbers and electricians are the only trades that I know of, that have to be licensed here. I'm not sure if those are city or state licenses. I know houses built outside a city, and most of this state is rural, can be wired and plumbed by unlicensed contractors. There are no building codes outside municipal city limits. Most of the rural counties aren't even zoned. It would be difficult to try to make installers be certified here.
  13. strip buster

    strip buster my way is the best way. Charter Member

    we have the cold beer and the beautifull women and ofcourse u would bring ur own 'no lady boys here to satisfy u.;)...u can drive what you like as i'm sure it would be back to the airport.:yesss:
  14. RFI

    RFI Mr. Nefarious Senior Member


    Maybe I did not ask this question right. Are union installers licensed? Are they required to jump through the same hoops as a independent installer? And if not why not? Shouldnt they be required to be? Or are they just considered employees?

    I have never really thought of this before and I find this interesting.

    Last edited: Mar 30, 2010
  15. rusty baker

    rusty baker Well-Known Member

    Good question. All I can say in Missouri, no flooring installers have to be state licensed. I have a city license. To get it, you plunk down $20 and they give it to you. No test, no insurance, no bond required. They don't even ask for I.D.
  16. Isabella Flooring

    Isabella Flooring Pro Member


    My Business is doing well, And profitable, And I can say, I DONT HAVE TO PUNCH A CLOCK LIKE YOU. Never drank either....

    Brian, your wording is off sometimes, Times you acted like your a UNION member, If you are, Holding a California Contractors Licence and being a UNION Member I beleive is a CONFLICT OF INTEREST according to the Painters and Allied Trades....(unless you have a shop) Which is it, How about a # Hers is Mine 793968

    What are you playing both sides of the fence????????
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2010
  17. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain TFP Owner/Founder Administrator

    I deleted one of the preceding posts for a rules violation. There are a couple others that are very close to getting this topic closed. Please keep this professional. No personal attacks will be tolerated. If you have any questions about the rules, please review them here: TFP Rules

    Thank you,

    TFP Admin
  18. Barry Carlton

    Barry Carlton I Support TFP Senior Member Published

    I like where where this seems to be going based on floorman67 and Peter's insightful comments.

    Sorry for the other underlying current. I was expecting an animated discussion but I also was hoping it would remain civil.
  19. Peter Kodner

    Peter Kodner Inspector Floors Charter Member Senior Member

    Barry, flattery will get your everywhere...:)
  20. floorman67

    floorman67 One of THOSE Charter Member

    Some states require a contractors licenses and some do not.

    A state-issued contractors license is not an electrical license or a plumbers license.

    A Contractors license simply says you may do independent construction contracting work for commercial purposes in a state. Some go farther, but at its base thats all it is. A license to do independent work for commercial purposes. A dog an pony show to pad states revenue streams.

    An Electrical and Pumbing license states that you know the risks involved with electrical and plumbing work, know the codes, are in copliance with those codes, and you have the knowledge and ability to do that work in a safe way to protect the persons who will be using the building, so they are safe from electrocution, flooding, hazardous gasses, and other hazards associated with electric and plumbing. This is why local codes compliance officials and inspectors have various inspection throughout the development cycle of any project in regards to plumbing and electical. Additionally, the major purpose of a electrical/plumers license is to protect public health and safety by preventing unqualified people from practicing a those trades because of the public health risk involved, and specific plumbing and electrical permits are required for projects. There are also national codes the electrician and plumber must know and prove they know to remain in compliance and to get and update their licensing.

    They are 2 completely different forms of licensing.

    Some states may differ, but trade-specific certicifcation/licensing is required because people have died from, and been injured by, unknowledgable persons improperly performing electrical and plumbing work.

    Flooring is not licensed in that way in any state although some states do require contractor licensing for independent busienss entities. There is no perceived consumer health risk in flooring for this form of certification/licensing to be required.

    If an installer in a union and is employed by another person or business entity, then no, they are not required to have a contractors license becasue they are not a business, but an employee, but their boss/owner of the company would be required. Does not matter if they are union or non-union. What matters is if they are in busienss for themselves or not.

    Please post a specific warranty you feel is false or misleading. There are federal laws against false and misleading warranties.

    The reason warranties have been discussed here is because they are 100% absolutely related to the issue of certified workers versus uncertified workers installing product. Some want installers to believe manufacturers will be adding certification requirements to warranties and installation requirements, which is bascially scare tactics to try and force everyone to run out and get certified and/or unionize before that occurs so they feel they will be in compliance before it hits the streets. According to federal law that simply will not legally happen. I did not mean to bring this off-topic as I feel they are related in a very meaningful way.
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2010

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