INSTALL's John McGrath, ANSI Installation Standards and Unionization

Discussion in 'Industry News, Training & Organizations' started by Barry Carlton, Mar 28, 2010.

  1. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain TFP Owner/Founder Administrator

    C'mon, Roger, let's not turn my observation into something that takes this discussion off-topic. Tandy mentioned one, you know my disappointment in the directory and there are more. I'm not really interested in starting yet another topic about it because it's obvious these issues got cooties or something.

  2. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    No barry, the union is not in charge of the final standards. They're just excited to be involved in the process. In the interview you were hearing the union's agenda. It seems you and a few others assume somehow that their agenda is going to dominate the outcome of the program. I say that's fairly preposterous given the small market share that unions control at this point. We want to expand market share and that's going to be contingent upon drastically increasing the quality standards. Union workers can compete on large scale jobs so long as there's some respect for quality.

    The respect for quality is the agenda of everyone else in the industry that's participating. The non-union general contractors and anti-union corporations will have a much greater impact in the final draft proposal.

    That's the world we live in. If standards can be raised by increasing the general level of competence in the trade guys like you can expect more respect on job sites when you ask for HVAC, acclimation, space to open up materials and a clean, empty work space. That will mean more productive days and therefore bigger paydays for the piece workers and at least half a chance for union shops to compete.

    I hope that makes some sense.
  3. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    1000 s/y of carpet isn't going to get a business agent excited. If it's glue down that could be a one or two weekend job------in any case less than a weeks work for most good installers with a helper. I'd say 50K s/y of this and 100K s/ft of'll get a return call with those numbers.
  4. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Unfortunately those numbers would probably be out of line in Barry's market. Not a lot of big jobs to be had up there.
  5. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    Not a lot of big jobs to be had anywheres as far as I know. I'm going to go down under and steal that 45K yards of sheet goods job if things don't pick up. I'll bring a boatload of our "California Custom" Border Brothers and blow the socks off those Hillbillies!
  6. RFI

    RFI Mr. Nefarious Senior Member


    So wouldnt that be called rattin a job on the side? :D

  7. Barry Carlton

    Barry Carlton I Support TFP Senior Member Published

    Is there any plain generic installers on the committee. If there are 2 from each other field or mill shouldn't there be 2 quality and qualified (licensed, insured, and experienced) installers to represent the 'general population' of installers?
  8. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    Technically no. I could be wrong but my union (IBPAT) has no jurisdiction or reciprocal agreement with Tazmania, New Zealand, Australia or any other country in the Southern Hemisphere.

    I'll do the Google search to confirm this and then consult with my local business agent before I buy nonrefundable plane tickets to Tazmania or wherever the heck that job was.

    45K s/ that's something to think about!
  9. Barry Carlton

    Barry Carlton I Support TFP Senior Member Published

    Ya know they'll call you a 'cowboy' down there ;)
  10. RFI

    RFI Mr. Nefarious Senior Member


    The way I see it yes it would be but then again I am a small little installer from hickville.

  11. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    I'm a little guy too Rob. One day in high school we all had to line up to be weighed and measured for our physicals. The nurse was quite hurried. She recorded my height at 5'11". I was so excited I almost crapped myself. I knew damn well I was only 5'10. Anytime anyone every asked or they wanted to know on a form I put 5'11" and that's verified by an OFFICIAL government school worker so I never felt like a liar.

    Many, many years later I was working in the bowels of a ginormous hotel in Beverly Hills and we took a short cut to get to the cafeteria through some corridor that had very large I-beams on the exposed ceiling. It was obvious to me what I had to do. Taking my shoes off I realized that the EXACT height of that beam over the concrete was perfectly touching the tippy top of my head. Of course I still had my tape measure hanging on my belt so I measured from the floor up to the beam.

    5'9" Damn! It's true that as you age you can lose an inch or two in height. So now I can't tell that lie anymore about being a BIG MAN from the city. I'm an inch shorter than I thought and 2 inches shorter than I've been telling everybody my whole life. What a fraud.
  12. Barry Carlton

    Barry Carlton I Support TFP Senior Member Published

    So if there is so much money in this why isn't the govt. involved? why is there not a national contractors licensing bill in the works. It would have the power to test, certify and police those not licensed. If there is money to be made you can be sure that the govt will be there.
  13. Isabella Flooring

    Isabella Flooring Pro Member


    It is my opion that no money has egchanged hands yet. Also it hasn't been written yet.

    Alot of Donation's have gone on, with alot of people donating time at companies expense.

    Once some Money has been exchanged, I would say the the goverment might get involved, Maybe Not...

    Just a thought
  14. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Brian get your plane ticket and come and see me :D
    From what I am aware here is that the Government will only deal with one group re training etc. From what I remember from when I was envovled with National Flooring everything from Standards to training went through the ITO or National Flooring
    National Flooring Association - Welcome to the NFA Website
  15. strip buster

    strip buster my way is the best way. Charter Member

    bring a heap of boa tape with ya and i might point you in the right direction.
  16. floorman67

    floorman67 One of THOSE Charter Member

    In a court of law, the standards (methods) are what discerns responsibility. NOT if the installer was certified or not. It does not matter if certification was mandated in the manufacturers installation guidelines.

    In fact, manufacturers who have required certification and manufacturer training have LOST lawuits when products were properly installed and they denied a claim because of no manufacturer training or certification. Just ask Forbo, Interface, Lees/Mohawk, when they lost cases they denied claims upon because of uncertified installers properly installing their product.

    You are being spoon fed disinformation if anyone tells you any different.

    Follow the installation specifications to the letter and you cant go wrong.

    It is my opinion that installers are being scared into spending alot of time and money obtaining certification and joining unions to get it for the sole purpose of enhancing the unions wallet and to expand an ever-decreasing collective bargaining union membership base.

    Don't get me wrong. Certifications are great if you do not have a mentor or supervisors/craftsmen capable of teaching you properly, but more craftsmen are non union than union. More craftsmen learn by experience and instruction than through certification. The worlds floors have been properly installed through the centuries without certification.
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2010
  17. rusty baker

    rusty baker Well-Known Member

    Thank you, Floorman 67. That is what I said earlier in this thread but was told I was wrong. It is illegal to turn down a claim, simply because the installer isn't certified.
  18. Peter Kodner

    Peter Kodner Inspector Floors Charter Member Senior Member

    floorman67, what source is that info coming from? I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, just looking for some documentation. I would think this is a states rights issue and can vary my locale. I'm very curious if this is in the UCC.
  19. floorman67

    floorman67 One of THOSE Charter Member

    The Federal Trade Commission, specifically, The Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act of 1975, which specifically outlaws tie-in sales provisions in any Product Warrenty ... meaning that a manufacturer may not require a separate or specific purchase or a purchase from a specific entity or prerequisite requirement unless they can PROVE that that tie-in provision would absolutely and unequivivally affect the warrentability of the product. And since every flooring product can and is properly installed by uncertified individuals every day all over the world, its illegal for them to deny a claim when a product was installed properly regardless of any tie-in requirements like certification requirements.

    Which is why, when they do try to insinuate certification is a requirement, it will also state something similar to: "... This warranty gives the purchaser specific legal rights; other rights may also be available which may vary from state to state ..." ... which covers them on the fraud front.

    ... and no matter what state you are in, Federal Legislation trumps State Legislation.

    If you experience manufacturers denying warranties for properly installed flooring products, file a complaint with the FTC, but I doubt you will see that. What you will see is alot of innuendu and disinformation by various parties to advance their own agendas and/or to pick your pockets.
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2010
  20. Peter Kodner

    Peter Kodner Inspector Floors Charter Member Senior Member

    floorman67, thanks for the links! :D Some very interesting reading and I would love to read up on some cases more specifically tied into the issues we are discussing. Do you know of any specific cases tried we can read up on?

    I am having trouble understanding a ruling a certification would be construed as a tie in sale. I am thinking this may be along the lines of retailers giving out installer or 'preferred installer" lists and not contracting for the labor themselves. I am under the impression in this case, the seller of the goods would incur some liability for the installation. I actually have a client who is suing both the material seller and installer on a horrendous installation. I have asked to be kept in the loop on how the case is settled.

    The foregoing notwithstanding, the certs today are available to anyone, albeit some with a cost involved. Further, the manufacturers are not providing the installation services (they tried for a while and we all know how that worked for them.). In virtually all cases, they are at least 2 transactions removed from the installation. Doesn't that provide them some degree of indemnity?

    I also believe the warranty it self has to be read. Is it implied, full or conditioned/partial. The FTC does acknowledge there are differences and remedies would be affected by this.

    Again, please don't construe my comments as my doubting your veracity, I truly want to understand this issue better.

    Interesting direction for this thread...

    Footnote: found this from one of the Wikipedia pages. An interesting read but may have confused me more than helped :confused:

    A Businessperson's Guide to Federal Warranty Law
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2010

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