Glue oozing out of LVT

Discussion in 'Vinyl Flooring Q&A' started by povertyhill, May 28, 2017.

  1. povertyhill

    povertyhill Member

    I am sure somebody has saw something like this out there. What is the problem? New house. Slab was poured Feb 2015. LVT laid in Nov 2015. All was good till maybe 3 or 4 months ago. In one area it looks like melted Velveeta cheese and in another area it is dark, nearly black. Have an email out to the floor place also but wanted more eyes and opinions as to what is going on here. Just going to say what I know. Not saying this is contributing to the problem.... 1.In some of these places the grout job is not completely perfect. You can see small cracks between tile and grout. 2. Don't think it is a moisture issue as in too wet of mopping. Just been using damp mop. 3. I have hot water lines plumbed in a loop and have small recirculating pump on timer couple hours during peak water using so that we don't have to run water so long to get hot water to faucets..both areas of glue are roughly where the lines are running to kitchen and bath. Is it possible that there is enough heat coming up thru 4" of concrete that it making this problem?
    Mannington tile, not sure on glue. Remember installer saying it was easy to replace if one was damaged.
    Thanks for any input
     

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  2. Hanover Fist

    Hanover Fist Pro Member

    Hi,

    Define mop; Sponge pad or actual mop?
    Also was your installer aware that you had radiant hydronic in-slab heat? Because, yes - adhesives can be temperature sensitive if used in the wrong application.
     
  3. povertyhill

    povertyhill Member

    actual mop and no I don't think he knew about the water lines but everbody has water lines in floor. I never thought about the fact that hot water runnin thru them for couple hour a day would cause a problem but..
     
  4. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    My guess is you have a leak as it looks like moisture is killing/dissolving the glue under the tiles
    Was a moisture test taken of the concrete slab before the tiles were laid?
    I would have thought the concrete slab which should be 6 inch thick be dry as rule of thumb is 1 inch of concrete 1 month drying as long as no lakes of rain water have been laying on the slab slowing down the drying time
    I wonder if the concrete slab was cut right through at a later date so the water pipes could be put into place instead of the concrete poured over the pipes when the slab was first poured? This would have destroyed the plastic on the ground under the concrete
    Is there anyway you can have all the tapes turned off in the house, read the water meter on the road, go out for the day then read the meter again when you get home to see if there is any water been used? Maybe there is a hole in the under floor pipes?
     
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  5. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    Moisture yes, source ?, is that area warmer than rest? Could be moisture from slab. Moisture from slabs or under damages hundred of millions in flooring per year,
     
  6. Chris Mha

    Chris Mha Charter Member Senior Member

    I'd like to know manufacturer of the LVT as well as what adhesive was used? That looks like VCT adhesive oozing up. Also could be high pH in the slab. East moisture testing conducted on the slab?
     
  7. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Chris from the first post
    Mannington tile, not sure on glue.

    I feel if there was a problem with a high pH or similar the whole area would have glue oozing up not just over the areas with the heating tubes
    Looks pretty wet to me
     
  8. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    I assumed it was Taylors adhesive, but yes, could be vct adhesive, another contributing factor. Also if a 1/16" square notch was used that's more adhesive than Mapei Eco 360 that I liked, not much adhesive going down to begin with for it to squeeze out and also show deformity as the 1/16" if dry set raises the plank off floor allowing vertical distortion.
     
  9. povertyhill

    povertyhill Member

    Thanks for all the responses so far. Don't know if it matters but might be a little misunderstanding. I don't have heated floor. It is just my pex plumbing that was put in a sleeve before the slab was poured. And since I have water circulating thru it at several different times during the day I figured there would be a bit of a chance of heat being transferred from that thru the slab. But it is never noticeable to bare feet that there is an area that is warmer than others. Was just throwing all info out that I could possibly think of. And not sure but I don't think there was a moisture test done before install. But this is middle of Oklahoma and summer is hot and dry so have a hard time thinking that is the problem. And its on the side of a hot dry hill!! It sounds like the glue is in question. I am going to try and find what glue was used. Will post when I find out.
    Thanks much
     
  10. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    How are you going to find that out?

    Good point though, I think adhesive used should be documented on paperwork of installation. Along with trowel notch used, I could say a little more but will refrain, like site conditions, etc.
     
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  11. Chris Mha

    Chris Mha Charter Member Senior Member

    We had an old flooring inspector that lived in Tulsa until he passed away. I can assure you that he inspected numerous moisture issues in the state of Oklahoma. Please don't be so hasty to dismiss a moisture issue. Ground moisture can be an issue
     
  12. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Mike you are not trying to tell me the layer has used a different notched trowel in just the area where the pipes are and a different notched trowel for the rest of the installation as the glue is only oozing up where the pipes are? :)
    I still reckon there is a fairly large "leak" which could be coming from the pipes
     
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  13. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    No, I'm just saying that whatever causes the adhesive to soften that there's a lot under the tile with a heavier notch trowel. I prefer a higher quality adhesive to allow for smaller notch trowel.

    I was thinking if there's a spot to remove one tile, scrape up half the adhesive on slab, see if the slab dries in that spot.
     
  14. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Bottom line, from pictures we can tell you with certainty THERE IS EXCESSIVE MOISTURE! From pictures we cannot tell you where it is coming from, but trust us it is there.
     
  15. Mannington MT-711 would be the appropriate adhesive to use under Mannington Adura. There are other 3rd party adhesives that may have been used that would also be acceptable such as Mapei 360, Henry's 640, Taylor 2091.

    From the pictures that does not look like MT-711. MT-711 usually is greyish-white to white in color when in the pail and dries to a milky clear color. It's been a little while since I played with any but I don't know that there's been any changes in the last 4 years. The adhesive oozing up is obviously tannish yellow and in the last photos black.

    The residue coming up looks like multipurpose adhesive - which is not usable for LVT. This could cause some serious problems such as plasticizer migration issues. Would definitely be something to check.

    Pulling a tile or two will most likely be the only way to tell what is really going on. Elmer is correct in that it does appear moisture from below is playing a part. This could be from a leak in the pex, slab moisture, moisture of intrusion such as a crack in the slab, etc., etc.

    Just to add to what others have said, you can pour a slab in the middle of the dessert and have a slab moisture issue. The ground contains up to 99% Relative Humidity. This is not liquid water but water in a gaseous state. In a gaseous form water is a much smaller molecule than it is when it's in a liquid state. The ground is constantly emitting this water into the air above. Dry hot weather doesn't dictate that you won't have an issue because even the dessert can reach 99% Rh under concrete. Not saying that's the issue, just explaining that the possibility cannot be ruled out yet.

    My recommendations would be to contact whom you purchased from and installed and start a claim. This is definitely not normal. Depending on the response you get from the flooring store / installer you may also want to contact a qualified independent inspector and have an uninvolved 3rd party inspect the floor in case you get into litigation down the road. By all means though give the store and installer the chance to diagnose and rectify the situation first.

    I do want to ask one question though. Do you by chance clean the floor with a steam cleaner?
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2017
  16. povertyhill

    povertyhill Member

    No steam cleaner. Thanks again for all help. Am waiting on my floor rep.
    I will post back when I find out what the problem is just so you all know. Might help somebody else someday
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. That's good. Those things are death to floors. They hawk them all the time on QVC and I have to fly past the channel when they're on because my hands start shaking. :)

    The reason I've asked is that I've seen stuff similar to the pictures with the black ooze when those have been used before.

    I know this is minor, but I thought I'd share something about the grout joints you mentioned having minor cracks in them. That's VERY, VERY common in grouted LVT installations. The reason is that almost everyone in the industry recommends or uses Mapei's pre-mixed acrylic grouts. A good manufacturer and decent product but can be tricky to work with. When you're cleaning those joints it's almost impossible to not have these cracks form. You have to clean the residue off with a damp sponge. A tad too much water and you wash out the aggregate in the grout and it shrinks. A tad to little and it won't come off. It's very temperamental to work with even for someone with a practiced hand. Looking at the pictures, they really looked pretty good to me for what it's worth.

    Thanks for your post and keep us posted about the outcome. :)
     
  18. povertyhill

    povertyhill Member

    Ok...my floor salesman took one look at pics and said definitely moisture. So..reflecting back on my previous posts and me being a farmer I just know how hot and dry we get here from my occupation perspective. Like I tell my children...if you keep your mind and eyes open you will learn something everyday. My lesson like some of you have said already is that vinyl flooring is VERY sensitive to moisture. So my floor store/salesman were very helpful. Jumped right on it and got paperwork/claim started. Checked to see if flooring still available. Going to pull some tile up and check moisture of slab. Said they would work thru it a step at a time and get it fixed. They are thinking it is going to be ground moisture just coming up thru slab. I asked them what my options were going to be and they are telling me that there is an adhesive for a situation like mine so i guess time will tell.
     
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  19. Hanover Fist

    Hanover Fist Pro Member

    Keep us posted, sounds like you may be in good hands. Slow is better. Annoying, granted, but more acurate, always.

    All too often we hear; "We'll send a guy to fix it." And some schlep rushes by at 5:45 at night and leaves it worse than he found it.

    Edit: I say that through pure experience. I've been that schlep. Can't fix stupid - if the primary installer doesn't fundamentally understand the product, a repairer can only do so much.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    I would still be finding out a way to see if your pipes are leaking as I mentioned right at the beginning I would think if the concrete slab was wet there would be different areas on your installation with the glue coming through the gaps in the tiles not just the area where the pipes are
     
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