Glazing heat weld seams?

Discussion in 'Vinyl & Rubber Flooring Sales and Installations' started by Steve Olson, Jul 21, 2017.

  1. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

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    If you don't have the right tip for welding vinyl with a urethane surface layer the clear finish layer fractures/melts in an ugly way which is irreparable. Not sure if this is what he's referring to but I ran into it on a small repair patch years ago. Keiro Lincoln Park Jan,14 '10 008.JPG Perspective Burnt Weld.JPG
     
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  2. Mark Brown

    Mark Brown On The Surface Flooring I Support TFP

    To this day my biggest beef with the manufacture of Lino is the "no wax" bs cleaning regime they push. It is a farce, lies i tell you!! Even in light commercial installs they always look dirty and worn long before their time. Nothing on the face of gods green earth will ever replace a sealer and waxing regime for the long haul. I just tell clients it is a finish designed to keep the material from getting abused as it is installed and that a maintenance program is needed. Am i lying.... according to the manufacturer sure but it is the truth from where i stand which is about 2 feet off the ground because i am down on my knees.
     
  3. Commercial Floor Rep

    Commercial Floor Rep I Support TFP Published

    I have to respectfully disagree with you on that Mark. I'm the guy that has to go out when the complaints of wear and maintenance are called in. 99.9% of the time I can make the product look like the day it was installed even if it's ten years old. Just using nothing more than ammonia and water and actually cleaning the floor.

    The problem is that people hear "low maintenance" and they think it means no maintenance. The turnover rate in housekeeping departments is ridiculous. I'm also the guy that works with those folks to try and get them to follow simple instructions on how to clean the floor and it's pretty disheartening to say the least. I could literally spend 100% of my time doing nothing but training and re-training maintenance staff. You train a group of 10 people and 30 days later half of them are gone and the people who replace them get little to no training and so the problems start all over again.

    Beyond the maintenance staff there is a "secret war" between the floor industry and the maintenance industry. Even small facilities usually have a rep who calls on them from the local janitorial supply. Stop and think about it. Those guys are paid commission on selling product. Floor finish, stripper and cleaner along with the accompanying equipment are the biggest part of their pay check. Now we suddenly tell their customer you don't need those things. The first thing they tell the customer is "awe that 'no wax" doesn't work" or you should do this or that without consulting the manufacturers recommendations and they end up causing a huge problem because their job is to sell that customer something.

    In healthcare, where disinfectants are needed, I've caught countless times where the dilution rates are turned up 2 or 3 times higher than they should be, causing huge problems (I'll explain that in a second). Many times it's the rep who is setting those rates not the in-house staff. If you're rate is higher, you sell more product, duh!!! The staff is either oblivious to this or it plays into the (incorrect) mindset that "more is better".

    So why is that a problem?

    There are really 3 main types of disinfectants on the market. The first is the phenolic cleaners, the second is quatrenolic - often just called 'quat(s)', and the third is a new generation based on hydrogen peroxide technology. Phenols and quats are basically oily substances that attack and kill biological pathogens (germs and viruses) when left in contact on surfaces for a specific period of time. The typical process is to lay down a coat of water/disinfectant, agitate it for 60- 90 seconds, then let this solution dwell on the floor for 10-12 minutes (but it mustn't dry during that time), then rinse and remove with clean water.

    When this is over concentrated it leaves an oily buildup that will dry on the floor. This is a huge problem because much like soap it attracts dirt. Even worse, when it becomes wet (like from someone spilling something) it gets incredibly slick - oil and water don't mix - and you get people falling.

    It's pretty easy to check and see if this is what is happening. You just take a clean, white terry cloth towel and wet it with clean water - nothing else. Wipe the floor and if you see tiny bubbles form - Bingo! - residual. You then just have to clean that off.

    The good news is that the 3rd generation, the hydrogen peroxide based product, doesn't leave any residual even if it dries on the floor. It just evaporates. The bad news on it, only one company is making it - Johnson-Diversy, and so far no one else has jumped on board.

    The next big problem that the supply reps cause is with the pads and mops that they are selling the facility. Those older style nylon scrub pads that they used on their swing machines, don't do well on today's commercial floors. With the wide spread use of embossed print visuals vs. traditional flat inlaid, these types of pads don't get down into the embossing and clean the floor, they just ride over the highest part of the surface. The reason they sell these vs. newer microfiber pads is because they're way cheaper per unit. But, they also (should) get replaced 10 times more often than the newer microfiber pads.

    In other words the facility is paying $3-4 per pad for the old style nylon pads while a microfiber pad runs $25 - $35. Again, it's the old "keep them buying the cheap stuff" routine so that they have to buy more and replace often. And obviously, lack of training and awareness of new technology is a big factor. When I come in as "the floor guy" when there's a complaint and start talking about this stuff and showing them what it can do for them they are literally like a deer in head lights. They've never even heard of or knew anything about it.

    One of the first things I do when I go on a complaint like this is ask to see the maintenance closet, not just ask them what they are using, but show me the closet. This lets me see what they are "really" using, what condition the equipment they're using is in, what other little "dirty" (pun intended) secrets they might be trying to hide that may be lurking in there. I've found things that boggle the mind - lady who was cleaning her sheet vinyl with pinesol, lady who cleaned her sheet vinyl with murphy's oil soap, guy who cleaned his floor with pot and pan cleaner, guy who cleaned spots off the floor with steel wool and chrome polish, constantly finding liquid soap instead of a neutral cleaner being used, and on and on and on.

    Not sure about Canada, but here in the states the environmental controls placed on healthcare facilities by local, state, and federal government are becoming very important. For example, the watershed (waste water returned to the local sewers) is now being monitored very strictly for anything with environmental impact. Things like floor polish and stripper negatively impact the environment. The state and federal surveys for these facilities take these things into account and it can actually impact the amount of healthcare re-imbursement the facility receives if they are found to be in violation. So, it's important and a real thing to have floors that don't require finish, not just a marketing deal.

    Bottom line is, I've got millions of square feet of no-wax sheet installed. I've seen it many times when it's going in and I make it a point to check on these jobs pretty regularly as I can and ,outside of shoddy maintenance, the floors do perform as promised and do look good. If I can make the floor look good with nothing more than a little ammonia water and a microfiber pad, they can too with the tons of tools they've got at their disposal.

    And Mark, you do a great job on your posts and I'm so glad you're here with us on the site so please don't take this negatively. I'm just trying to share some of my experience and insight from a different perspective.

    Keep up the great work out there and keep the posts coming!!!
     
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  4. Mark Brown

    Mark Brown On The Surface Flooring I Support TFP

    I never take criticism as negativity when it is delivered so expertly. I might even still choose to disagree with certain things but no one can ever dispute well intentioned well informed arguments. Especially when they are crafted with such care and expertise.

    Thanks be to you my good sir, you truly are a gem!
     
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  5. Mark Brown

    Mark Brown On The Surface Flooring I Support TFP

    Now that I have a little more time....

    OK so perhaps I should not discount factory finishes out of hand however I must admit on a personal level I still have to say I am against it.

    Site sealed and finished linoleum has to be not only one of the most beautiful floor coverings it is bloody near bullet proof. Now that being said, sure it can be butchered and an improper or inadequate maintenance schedule will leave a bigger mess than if it wasn't done but you would have a hard time arguing that if both approaches were maintained at the zenith of adequacy that a site finished floor would not out preform pre. Another big hold up I have with the concept is the weld. Now I havent personally been introduced to any of these newer pen doohickies, forbo's fat topped weld shield? was the last new measure I heard of.. long time now, but it would seem this allows for another point of failure and if not failure every time I try and top coat a weld I get the same thing... either it is too shiny or I wish my whole floor looked like that. Perhaps my brain is too old world flooring. There is a site I have in mind however I am going to travel back to.... hit it with some ammonia and see how these claims hold up. I have no problem going out of my way to prove myself wrong if I get to learn something along the way :)

    Now... vinyl finishes, that's a different story ;)
     
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