forbo training

Discussion in 'Industry News, Training & Organizations' started by eagleswubbie, May 31, 2014.

  1. Steve Forbo

    Steve Forbo Pro Member

    As far as I know, the basic recipe is the same for all "linoleum"
    What makes Forbo different other than higher quality control, is the Top Shield 2. It is a double layer of UV cured finish, which is why it never needs floor finish or waxing, stripping etc. Obviously over time, damage can occur along with regular wear and tear etc. This is when you would have to apply a coating of finish to the floor. But it is a turn key flooring product, unlike VCT, rubber and most vinyls.
    The vinyl products are pretty much the same as any high quality LVT, sheet vinyl etc. They make it simply to stay in that market. And I personally think it is one of the highest quality vinyls on the market as far as quality and durability.

    As far as what it takes to install properly with success is knowing the product.
    EVERY piece you cut has END CURL. Every piece NEEDS to be back rolled and both ends need to be massaged both before and during the installation as it goes into WET adhesive. It doesn't matter if it is a 1 foot or a 100 foot piece, the same basic rules apply and can not be skipped. Installers assume that it is simply going to stay flat on the floor just because it is glued and rolled.....This is where almost every failure happens....head seams and up against the wall at the end of a sheet.
    I am going to write up a little thread about this topic, and how critically important it is...along with pictures of what happens when you treat linoleum like regular sheet goods...It can get quite costly..

    When it comes to Journeymen, even with experience, the problem can easily multiply simply due to production demands...
    By the way, I quit the Union because of this, and I am much happier on a daily basis... I work more, make way more, and I am not forced to do things the wrong way....LOL
    The sad part is that there are many guys like yourself that actually give a crap about your work and the quality that you put out there. But this is quickly being diminished by the footage guys. And the price paid is at the manufacturers and end users expense. Customers should get a quality product and a quality installation. I sure as hell know I do when I buy something expensive. Why do you think that there is so damn much polished concrete being used EVERYWHERE....Customers, GC's, Architects, etc are tired of crap floors being installed...And they always blame the product. Yet over 95% of the failures are due to poor installation alone....
    Steve
     
  2. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    Thanks Steve. Great point, and one I'm acutely aware of with the polished concrete overtaking our resilient market share.

    So what you've explained about Forbo lino confirms what my buddy, the ACTUAL Forbo Master Mechanic I work with all the time told me. He basically agreed that the Armstrong and Tarkett were a little easier to handle and cut. But LINO IS LINO. That specific brand difference as far as install specs and training is all about that finish layer and the end curl. We don't do TONS of lino but when we do it gets done right. If you don't know how to handle lino a short one week course.........? I doubt it's possible.

    On the one hand lino is lino.......like you said the formula isn't significantly different from one brand to the next. But when you manipulate certain aspects of the finish layer as well as whatever minor differences in the overall cooking recipe there's more or less......massaging and adjustment.

    I was going about batshit crazy on that Tarkett lino job I did a few years ago when no matter what I tried to establish they cut the length seams TIGHT causing it to curl as the adhesive swelled the material. For Christ's sake it's all getting welded LEAVE a utility blade width gap----that's ALL I ask. MF's would nevertheless set their scribes tight so not only was there no where for the Turbo Groover wheel to follow but there was a definite CURL in the seam that was causing problems when they went to trim the weld.

    Thanks again and good luck with your new venture.
     
  3. eagleswubbie

    eagleswubbie Pro Member

    and the results are in

    floor prep =75.00 =pass
    mct =73.25=pass
    sheet install= 73.00=pass
    direct scribe =73.00=pass
    pattern scribe=73.20=pass
    heat weld=73.00=pass
    professionalism=74.69=pass
    test 99.38= pass
    I passed I'm certified associate mechanic !! Im the only union floor mechanic in the city of philadelphia to be certified !!
    Thankes everyone for all your help
     
  4. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain Owner/Founder Administrator

    Congratulations! :good:
     
  5. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    I'll second the congratulations.

    I'm glad to see they're not GIVING away the certifications.

    \
     
  6. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    What did they give away? Freebies?
     
  7. eagleswubbie

    eagleswubbie Pro Member

    Just a shirt.
     
  8. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    Sounds like when you pass they need to step it up a tad!

    And what about consolation prizes, they are not getting a game show!
     
  9. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    Recently the shop sent out a Forbo Master Mechanic to a job I was running. It was Armstrong Medintech 6" cove but my supervisor told me he wanted to know if this guy was worth a shit------presumably for future reference. That was the end of it as I don't VOLUNTEER to grade my co-workers. If they push me for the info I'll give them my OPINION but I like to see a few weeks to a month of different types of installs and skills before I judge a man. They never asked again. The job ended and he was let go.

    Anyway, HIS story was that the shop he was working for 14-15 years ago had scheduled a few journeyman to complete the Master Mechanic course but for some reason or another they couldn't make it and so he was sent as a late stage apprentice. I didn't think they were eligible but he said the class and test were really easier------no harder than the apprenticeship test according to him.

    I kind of goofed on him-----all in good fun and explained the whole deal with the shop wanting an analysis of his skills. He worked with us for 2-3 weeks. Minor prep, cap metal, cove stick and install primarily the shitty little rooms like toilets, showers, janitor closets, utility rooms and such. TOUGH place to really SHINE.

    In the end I found his work to be.......acceptable. There's not a regular guy at our shop including the late stage apprentices who I wouldn't rather have on a job. That doesn't mean this guy sucks. I guess I just really had high hopes. But when I had to go back on the punch list I could see very intimately...............he's just the average guy.......far from MASTER status.

    How many MASTER MECHANICS do you really think are out there?

    rhetorical question
     
  10. eagleswubbie

    eagleswubbie Pro Member

    Not many !!! good mechanic to me is one that can shine in a dark room , or able to finish his room while everybody is standing around watching and waiting to go home , with no mistakes and utilizing his materials knowing in advanced what he needs to complete next room and sequencing his rolls before he starts cutting . I feel that after leaving forbo class that they pushed to try to make you pressured and see how you react, what kind of person you are < if your gonna just keep going or stop and fix the problem The class is designed to make you fail not pass , the instructors are there to get under your skin not teach you how to install < you should already know how to install , i.e. the assessment class
    guess that why theirs no more master classes
     
  11. Majwoody

    Majwoody Pro Member

    I just met a master mechanic that didn't heat weld. He does cabinets for HD and ran tile cuts for me. I loved the forbo class. Took 6 months to get my test results but the card fits in my wallet and the shirts nice. With no master course how does one advance further? I don't feel I'm at that point anyways but I would like to know. Good training is impossible to come by in my area it seems.
     
  12. RFI

    RFI Mr. Nefarious Senior Member

    There will be MM courses available. They are starting to work on the structure of the new courses soon.
     
  13. Adroit

    Adroit Pro Member

    You have to weld to be Forbo certified?
     
  14. Steve Forbo

    Steve Forbo Pro Member

    Yes....and weld properly...not just fill the groove with weld...LOL

    Very odd. I have never seen that, even based on the old school. I am sure his card is not valid anymore...
    Feel free to PM me his name.
    Steve
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 22, 2014
  15. Majwoody

    Majwoody Pro Member

    Didn't get to know him enough to catch a last name. He was hired because we needed journeyman tile setters and he claimed to be one. After half day he was put on helper status. Nice guy though. Said he took the courses in Reno but never installed Lino after. Didn't come off as completely FOS either. Just did some marmorette a couple weeks ago. It was easier to cut than forbo but I'm not a fan of their glue or trowel size. Just personal preference.
     
  16. eagleswubbie

    eagleswubbie Pro Member

    Steve where my scores high enough to be invited back for a masters class
     
  17. Steve Forbo

    Steve Forbo Pro Member

    As of right now, there is no masters class.
    If and when it is developed properly, I will let everyone know.
    Right now, it is more important to get the floors down properly with the training and experience needed in the field.
    I know someone said it was designed to make you fail, but that is far from what the training is. Anyone who goes through the associates class, pass or fail, comes out a way better mechanic. The people who think it's BS are usually the ones not cut out for it. Some simply need more experience with the material, and have successful installations.
    Trust me, I am on a big Marmoleum job right now that was going south, real quick....Installed by 20+ year resilient installers. Everything they did is a problem. And I'm going to get stuck trying to fix all the issues. But right now, I have to make sure the rest of it goes in right. Luckily, I am working with a great guy who is a certified Forbo installer and truly gives a crap.....
    But there is only 2 of us and 5000 yards of material to install.....and too many jobs on hold....
    Steve
     
  18. smc

    smc Pro Member

    i took the forbo course years ago
    excellent course
    was little nervous at first alot of companies here have tried to do seminars and instructional classes and found them a waste of money
    forbo was very intense course...worth every penny
     
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