Discussion in 'Industry News, Training & Organizations' started by eagleswubbie, May 31, 2014.
It's a shame that 10 guys wasted their week in Hazleton
Like I have said, we do assessments to initially weed out the garbage. The assessment is pretty straight forward, and we kind of hold your hand through it. It really comes down to the basics and the ability to follow direction/instructions, and overall attitude.
The overall attitude of people that go to the assessment is, "This is simple, what a joke!" And that 4x4 sheet of plywood is quite the fingerprint of what someones abilities and mental state is. Once again, like I have said, you would be amazed at how many people can not do the most basic techniques even after being fully instructed, shown what to do, then told to do what is asked. Something as simple as, "start with a green tile in the corner", making sure you 1/4 turn the tile, cutting a "net" seam, etc....
We simply want only the best of the best installing our material. Everyone is so quick to blame the material, the glue, conditions, etc..... It's up to YOU!!!!!! the INSTALLER to keep the bar high and be aware of what is going on at a job site.
I listened all week to how difficult the material is, and how the glue sucks, and why is it so hard to make this floor stick.....LOL
Bottom line is, follow instructions, install as per the instructions, backroll EVERY sheet, massage every sheet, get 100% glue coverage, roll the crap out of the floor, you will have 100% success....
Well, I can verify that Damons Bar and Grill sucks....LOL
Hopefully, anyone that failed the class learned something. It is like anything else in life, you can only succeed if you try and learn from your mistakes. We all make mistakes out there.... We simply need to get better from them.
I learn every day in the field. Weather it is from seeing something I have never seen before, or watching someone screw something up, or even the most basic screw up you do yourself.....You always learn.
Almost every student that goes to the Forbo school goes in as one person and comes out as another.....unless of course they are a stubborn, know it all, that is the best in the world according to themselves....LOL
. Steve r u a instructor? I agree about what r u saying with marmolemum I was impressed with Johnny Forbo. He new what everybody was doing and when they where going to do something wrong . I think part of the course was them trying to apply presser and stress and see ware you crack and start the "train wreck " I'd like to see what master traing would be like but they said u need to ace this corse and I do believe I didn't .it's takes nervers of steel to do impeccable work when Johnny is laying on floor next to u while your gluing , cutting seams , groveing and welding !!! I had the privilege of having him on my team while installing MCT , he was are #1 guy ,guleing bitch .. Lol .when we had gotten ahead he asked me to sit and watch the train wrecks going on
Just received my scores.
Floor prep: 73 pass
Mct: 73.13 pass
Sheet: 72.67 fail
Direct scribe: 73 pass
Pattern scribe: 73.4 pass
Heat weld: 72.88 fail
Professionalism: 73.85 pass
Post test: 96.88 pass
So I failed by .33 and .12
shouldn't your other high scores level it out?
It sounds rigged to me
It is not rigged at all Mike.
Along with the scores are also notes that coincide with the scores.
When we grade each of many sections, there are many variables. Too many to go into detail.
It does get averaged out, then sent to the higher ups in the company, along with a file....
Some people are excellent at some things and some people are not so good at others. The scores you are seeing are the average of a group of of scores. IE: Sheet Install- Layout, glue, seams, pattern scribe, flat scribe, pipe cuts, door cuts, insert cut, etc..... Each one gets a grade, then averaged out. It is actually very thorough and detailed, not rigged.
Ok so what's next? Is there a program to assist in passing? A few days of intense training?
They recommend finding a certified installer to work with...then come back in a year for the week class.
Man I'm 2nd guessing myself now . I missed layout adjustment in half of room for mct Didn't check room for square!!! I didn't have any issues on pattern scribe and direct scribe. Inset Whent in good ,welds where good .
Haha I was nervous too. I screwed up a few small things also but they also look to see how you handle your screw ups. At least that's what they told me.
It's kind of a difficult situation, your unfamiliar with surroundings, doing things they instruct you to do , learning, seeing how every one else works, the silly non real world mock ups, the tools, being away from home, not sleeping well in your comfort zone, how many other factors. What was it again less than half point ?
So what one does in real life, maybe there's not enough practice doing something in particular, kinda like an employee using an employee for their strengths and efficiencies. How do you improve on areas that you do very seldom. I've never done cove in real world and have installed flooring 20 years or so. I never even heard of Forbo before joining here, seams like they need to have more clinics.
Nothing better than getting your hands on the material and installing it. The best lesson ever in my opinion.
Everyone either leaves the school hating Forbo, or trying to better themselves by having their mistakes pointed out.
I was lucky enough to have my dad, who was a lino expert teach me. Forbo only made that better due to technology and hands on experience in the field.
It has nothing to do with how good of a mechanic you are with other material....It's based on Forbo ONLY. I have seen many great mechanics crumble at the school and in the field. It is the most thorough education in flooring available.
The problem we see in the field is exactly what you are describing. The average "good" mechanic treats Forbo like any other floor. It is a completely different floor than anything else out there..... It's "SHEET WOOD"....LOL
The school "mock up" is REAL world conditions... Not a straight wall in the place, not a straight door jamb/door buck, etc....
I have worked hundreds of jobs with very little sleep, so that's not a factor. All students are allowed to use their own tools if they want. We provide the basic tools to get the job done, so it's not like there's a magic set of tools that only Forbo has...Our tools actually suck if you ask me...LOL
And Flash cove is NOT covered in the class. That was part of the Master Mechanics class that does not exist as of right now.
The class is in a 6000 sq ft area, not in a 4x8 booth. It is based on real life situations that we all see every day. It is as real as it gets....
and therein lies my problem. It's rl jobs that "OTHERS" see everyday. I've been laying 30 odd yrs and have fitted maybe 10 Marmo jobs but because I have seniority in store I get the job. Small city miles from anywhere. I do like working with it but am by no means confident.
Only had one job fail and it was the smallest....
Heck, the last salesman told me to just grab something from the back of the shop when I asked if he ordered the adhesive..we only carry Vinyl/Carpet glues...
Wish we had more courses down under and closer to home.
Halstead Floorings ran a competition a few years ago for the best Marmo layer in NZ but I haven't heard of anything else. I only went cause I liked one of the guys organising the competition and he was short of layers who were interested in turning up. This type of thing is fine for wage/salary guys not contractors
I actually laid about 20 lin m about December for the first time in years
That other job I mentioned a little while ago is still sitting in the store in the roll. Don't know what is happening
I would think to go to one of these classes one would have to lay a fair bit of Marmo continually to keep the "knack" and to not lay any for a year or so would really put a layer on the back foot
I wouldn't mind having a look though but at my age a younger layer would benefit more than me. 67 is getting a bit past it
The class is just that, a class....to learn in. It is intense, it is thorough, it is what you need to know to install properly.
There are two kinds of people that go through the class, those who've "got it" and those "Who don't"
Many go into the class thinking it's like a basic certification like Nora, Altro, Mondo etc.... It is far from just having a tech rep show up on your job site or shop and bullshit you, then give you a certification. In my opinion, only the cream of the crop will pass, as it should be with all manufacturers, but it's not.
Forbo is taking the bull by the horns, so to speak, and we are looking for 0% failure on our products in the field.
There are many excellent mechanics that go through the class, even if they don't pass, it doesn't mean they are no good. It simply means they need more hands on experience with the products. Some people simply have bad habits, some people have big egos, some people don't give a crap, and some people take away some of the greatest knowledge offered in the field.
Even when a student does not pass, I can assure you that they have learned a TON of information that is worth it's weight in gold. The people that don't learn from it simply are not cut out for it.
There's great opportunity at the school. I suggest that anyone who signs up goes in with the right attitude and is willing to learn.
I would love to go to the great down under... Pay my airfare and I will be glad to come...
Steve, I haven't handled a lot of Forbo brand products.
Just casually, can you describe what's so different about Forbo lino compared to Armstrong, Tarkett and any other brand?
Likewise with their vinyl products?
I'm just a little confused. I realize that there are some brand specific procedures for any and all brands, especially with TIMING and trowel notch size-----not to mention prep. But not having gone to any of the Forbo classes or having any extensive hands-on experience it's all just a little confusing to me. I certainly understand the lack of skill with LINOLEUM for both commercial and residential guys who handle almost exclusively SOFT AND EASY vinyl. But as far as vinyl to vinyl and lino to lino what are the MAJOR brand specific installation...........complications......that these supposed journeymen who are failing and getting rejected are missing?
Does is all basically boil down to that VAST majority of resilient/vinyl guys out there lacking basic training and adequate experience, or.............what?
I can't begin to tell you how frustrating it is to me that UNION journeymen who've been to school for 3-5 years and worked full time simultaneously could possibly walk away with a journeyman card and NOT be able to breeze through all these manufacturer certifications.
What the F are they doing in those classes?
looking at those grade's and all that is need is 74% to pass. I would think that it is not asking to much. You need a 80% to pass to keep your Armstrong certification.
an average of 73% is needed for each category. each category has 5-11 things that you are graded on.
Just heard from the best installer in the class i was in...he barely squeaked by with all 73's.