flashing patch over tacky adhesive

Discussion in 'Carpet Sales and Installations' started by Demonseed, Jun 27, 2007.

  1. Demonseed

    Demonseed Pro Member

    Re: tricks of the trade

    I noticed people discussing the problem of shifting or placing carpet, when the old adhesive is still very tacky. It is so much easier to just mix a thin coat of patch, and flash over the entire surface. It is faster than scraping up the old glue, and solves the situation faster and more efficiently.

    This should qualify as a tip, Replace your knee pads regularly, even if they have a hard cap. If you do carpet and hard floors, you should have at least 2 different pairs of knee pads.

    Another tip, (meant to be a joke)..Please Stretch Hallways in last. I make good money doing restretches, and I make more when I have to bust open every doorway seam because the hallway looks like a row of speed bumps.

    I could do tips for hours, not all as useful
     
  2. Floorguy

    Floorguy The Living Dead Charter Member Senior Member

    Re: tricks of the trade




    I don't agree with skimcoating over lumps and rigdes of old adhesive, and none of the glue manufacturers do either.

    I have two sets of knee pads. One set, my old Proknees, are for floor prepping, and my new set of Proknees are for the finished floor only.

    Ya, I never understood the guys "dead seaming" in a hallway, doing all the rooms first???? The hallway is always my first move.
     
  3. Demonseed

    Demonseed Pro Member

    Re: tricks of the trade

     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2007
  4. Floorguy

    Floorguy The Living Dead Charter Member Senior Member

    Re: tricks of the trade


    Inspectors like me, wouldn't have any work!!! Keep on, keep'n on. I'd hate to see an inspector starve.:zzz:
     
  5. Demonseed

    Demonseed Pro Member

    Re: tricks of the trade

    lol, you do realize some carpet manufacturers require flashing over old adhesives, especially black vct adhesives, to guarantee their products....
     
  6. Peter Kodner

    Peter Kodner Inspector Floors Charter Member Senior Member

    Re: tricks of the trade

    I'm presuming flashing is another term for skim coating? If new carpet is going in tackless over the adhesive, I'd just sprinkle some gypsum type powder on it. If a new glue down product is going in, I'd sure follow manufacturer directions or let the low bidder have the job! I'm not aware of any manufacturers they permit skim coating (not to imply there aren't any- I just don't know who).

    I'm an inspector, and those who know me will verify I do dearly love to eat lmao
     
  7. Floorguy

    Floorguy The Living Dead Charter Member Senior Member

    Re: tricks of the trade


    Exactly which manufacturers, if there are some.

    Exactly what are you flashing with? What is the exact product these "some manufacturers" required Or is it broad and use anything you like type of thing?lmao
     
  8. Daris Mulkin

    Daris Mulkin The One and Only Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Re: tricks of the trade

    Flashing I thinks means covering the old cutback with milk or latex additive for floor prep. But when doing this it has to be done in 2 coats with a roller in opposite directions.
    Works for me.

    Daris
     
  9. Demonseed

    Demonseed Pro Member

    Re: tricks of the trade

    Okay, Collins and Aikman (manufacturer), you must 'Skim coat' (flash) over existing adhesives, especially cut back adhesive. You think it is okay to use leaf blowers to adjust new carpet over active adhesive, sorry, but I have yet to see a bucket of Carpet adhesive that does not contain the phrase "REMOVE ALL OLD ADHESIVES". So what exactly are you saying, you are an inspector that would blame a job failure on an installer because he flashed over old adhesive, but not an installer that went directly against the Manufacturers printed directions on the adhesive?

    Now to Clarify we Patch with Portland based Products, typically Ardex. This is a common practice in commercial work, I can see why guys doing residential work may not understand the concept. If you want to tell me okay you are an inspector things must be done by the book, do not be selective. Like I asked you before, if you were doing a Hallway that wrapped around an island area, so that the carpet had to meet back up with itself, and it was a pattern match, how are you going to achieve the match using a leaf blower to position the carpet, over an active adhesive "EVERY MANUFACTURER SAYS YOU MUST REMOVE". Look on the same bucket of Glue and it will say it is acceptable to use OVER patch..

    Also if you install VCT, you must flash over cutback adhesives, and we also flash over any other adhesives that can not be removed from the floor. In many cases we also prime the floor, even when it is not specifically required by the manufacturer. Why? because it seals the surface you are working on and helps you to achieve a better bond.

    Aside from adhesives, Carpet manufacturers rarely ever specify a product they do not make, you should know that. Ardex is the generally accepted industry standard here.

    Now, you should not really be laughing, you should just be asking your questions in a polite and respectful manner, as I seem to recall it states in the forum guidelines. I do not know why you chose to use a condescending 'Voice' with me, I do work most installers may never encounter. You want details and specifics, PM me and I will email you.

     
  10. Demonseed

    Demonseed Pro Member

    Re: tricks of the trade

    Okay, even in your above statement, do you know any carpet Manufacturers that recommend sprinkling gypsum over old adhesive? Seriously, can you show me where I can find that in the installation instructions?

    You have guys here using leaf blowers to position carpet over active adhesive, now you are suggesting sprinkling gypsum over it, I really want to see where those processes are recommended by any manufacturer.

    On a tack and pad installation where there is an active adhesive on the floor, I have swept the floor with cheap patch, all that a product like 'Dependable' is good for. This has led to be an interesting discussion, why would you skim coat a floor?

    Another question, Can you tell me what manufacturers specifically say you cannot skim coat/flash a floor. Or do we go back to the same point... "YOU MUST REMOVE ALL OLD ADHESIVES FROM THE FLOOR". If that is the case, then get rid of the Gypsum, the leaf blowers, any chemicals designed to release old adhesive, etc. Is that what you are saying?

    Sorry guys, you are both wrong on this one.
     
  11. Floorguy

    Floorguy The Living Dead Charter Member Senior Member

    Re: tricks of the trade

    Ardex Substrate Prep


    Concrete floors must be solid: overwatered, frozen or otherwise weak concrete must be removed mechanically to provide a sound base. In addition, concrete should be evaluated for moisture and be free of oil, grease, wax, dirt, asphalt, curing compounds, latex and gypsum compounds, dust, paint, or any contaminant which might act as a bond breaker.


    Contaminated Concrete: All oil, grease, wax, dirt, chemicals, asphalt, latex and gypsum compounds, dust, paint, or any contaminant which might act as a bond breaker must be completely removed before installing an underlayment or topping.


    CUTBACK ADHESIVE OVER CONCRETE

    Asphalt-based cutback adhesive remaining on a concrete floor after removing old vinyl tile and other flooring represents one of the most difficult and risky subfloors for the installation of new flooring. Bleed-through of the cutback adhesive residue can adversely affect the new adhesive and floor covering being installed.

    Complete mechanical removal of cutback (i.e. grinding, sanding, blasting) can be hazardous as old cutback adhesive may contain asbestos. Do not sand or grind adhesive residue. Harmful dust may result. Inhalation of asbestos dust may cause asbestosis or other serious bodily harm. Please consult the adhesive manufacturer and all applicable government agencies for rules and regulations concerning the removal of floorings and adhesives that contain asbestos.

    Floor covering manufacturers and the Resilient Floor Covering Institute specifically recommend against the use of solvents and adhesive removers to treat adhesive coated subfloors. Residues from their use have been cited as contributing to numerous floor covering failures.

    Specific ARDEX underlayments can be installed over a thin layer of cutback or other non water soluble adhesive residue. Since the weakest link of the system will be the bond of the adhesive to the substrate, it is important that the adhesive be very thin, firm and have a good bond to the substrate.

    Thick accumulations, powdery, brittle or otherwise weak adhesive layers must be removed, but only with extreme caution. Use the wet-scraping method as outlined in the Resilient Floor Covering Institute’s “Recommended Work Procedures for Resilient Floor Coverings” to remove thick areas and build-ups of adhesive, and any areas that are weak and not well bonded to the substrate. (A reproduction of the procedures is available from the ARDEX Technical Service Department or at RFCI: About Resilent Flooring - Technical information.) The remaining residue should appear like a stain on the concrete and should be transparent. Check the substrate for hollow spots, latex patches or other weak areas and remove them. Wet-mop the floor to remove all debris and loose material.

    It is the responsibility of the installation contractor to ensure that the subfloor is properly prepared prior to the installation of the ARDEX material.


    Even Ardex doesn't agree with your cutting corners statements, and you stating "when the old adhesive is still very tacky. It is so much easier to just mix a thin coat of patch, and flash over the entire surface. It is faster than scraping up the old glue, and solves the situation faster and more efficiently."

    Many manufacturers of all kinds of flooring, suggest spreading a media like sand, dirt or even portland powder, on sticky adhesive, to help aid in scraping up the old adhesive, and balling it up with the media, for easier pick up & disposal.


    Are you on an agenda? You won't slide that misinformation past the Professionals here.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2007
  12. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain Owner/Founder Administrator

    Re: tricks of the trade

    Professional advice is always the preferred advice, but the attitude you use to disseminate that advice is what makes it palatable. You were in the same position as Demonseed once, Floorguy. My suggestion is to take a look at your own attitude before commenting on someone else's.

    Demonseed, we know that corners get cut occasionally and many of us have done so. However, we do not advocate corner cutting and we do not offer advice or guidance on how to cut corners as accepted practice. Many of the pros here will take strong exception to those ideas. Some get a little too passionate. Take it with a grain of salt. Your participation here is as important as anyone's.

    T
     
  13. Demonseed

    Demonseed Pro Member

    Re: tricks of the trade

    Specific ARDEX underlayments can be installed over a thin layer of cutback or other non water soluble adhesive residue. Since the weakest link of the system will be the bond of the adhesive to the substrate, it is important that the adhesive be very thin, firm and have a good bond to the substrate.

    That is called Skim Coating/Flash patching.

    I am giving you the oppurtunity to talk to me directly, so there is no confusion or doubt about my credentials or what I am discussing, it is up to you to use that avenue.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 29, 2007
  14. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain Owner/Founder Administrator

    Re: tricks of the trade

    I am sorry I had to severely edit your post, Demonseed, but that last sentence is the best idea you posted. When you have differences that cause you to lash out like you did, it's best that you use the PM system, email or phone calls. I wish you had taken my last post to heart. I do NOT like to edit member's posts. Please find a way to make your points without bashing a member in the process.

    Thank you,

    T
     
  15. Peter Kodner

    Peter Kodner Inspector Floors Charter Member Senior Member

    Re: tricks of the trade

    Demonseed, you are mixing issues here. And you are most assuredly wrong to accuse me of being condescending.

    On a tackless installation (you refer to as tack and pad. CRI refers to this as Stretch-In Installation. I will change my terminology in the future) there is no concern of bonding, hence my comment sprinkle some powder on it, which you allowed you have done yourself. To wit:
    I think we are in agreement here the main concern is to kill the tackiness of the old adhesive to allow installation of the cushion/pad.

    On virtually any type of glue down, be it direct, attached cushion, double stick, or modular, there is a definitive concern about compatibility. Here is CRI 104 (the commercial standard:

    7.1 Subfloor Conditions – The owner or general contractor is responsible for providing an acceptable substrate for the specified installation.

    Note: Installing carpet prematurely before other trades have completed their work often results in problems including: appearance retention, visible damage, soiling, adhesive failure, delamination and dimensional stability. These conditions may not be immediately evident.
    7.2 Temperature and Humidity – Carpet must be installed when the indoor temperature is between 65-95ºF (18-35ºC) with a maximum relative humidity of 65%. If ambient temperatures are outside these parameters, the installation must not begin until the HVAC system is operational and these conditions are
    maintained at least 48 hours before, during and 72 hours after completion.
    7.3 Floor Preparation - Carpet must be installed over properly prepared substrates that are suitable for the specific product and installation method selected. All cracks, holes and flooring irregularities must be adequately repaired to ensure a smooth, finished appearance and prevent accelerated wear. Subfloors must be structurally sound and free of foreign substances that might compromise the carpet or its installation. Patching compounds must be suitable for the use application. They must be polymer-fortified and applied according to the patch
    manufacturer’s instructions.
    Note: Patched areas may be porous and highly alkaline, which may prevent adequate adhesive bond. For best results patched areas should be primed.
    7.4 Concrete - Concrete must be cured, clean and dry. Cracks, chips and joints must be properly patched or repaired. Standard for Installation Specification of Commercial Carpet The Carpet and Rug Institute CRI 104 - 2002
    7.4.1 Stretch-in Installations – It is highly recommended that the owner or general contractor have the concrete subfloor tested to determine the moisture emission rate and surface pH prior to installation
    7.4.2 Adhesive Installations - The owner or general contractor must have concrete subfloors tested to determine the moisture emission rate and surface pH prior to installation. (See Section 7.10 )
    CAUTION: Any concrete floor, even when adequately cured and dry, can allow moisture vapor to pass through to its surface. Depending upon the type of carpet and method of installation, the moisture emission rate greatly influences the long-term success of an installation. The use of a properly installed, uncompromised, approved moisture membrane is essential in preventing moisture migration into and through a concrete slab. (Ref. ASTM F 710)
    7.5 Wood - Wood subfloors must be structurally sound. Subflooring, such as plywood, hardwood, particleboard, oriented strand board, or other materials, must be flooring grade and installed to manufacturer specifications. Cracks, chips and joints must be properly patched and prepared.
    7.6 Metal - Metal floors must create a smooth, even plane, and be cleaned of grease, oil, soil and rust. Metal or raised flooring must be structurally sound and properly secured.
    Note: Adhesives applied to bare metal surfaces can cause rapid oxidation or other chemical reactions. Bare aluminum must be sanded prior to adhesive application to remove oxidization.
    7.7 Resilient Flooring – Installing carpet over resilient flooring may be acceptable as long as the resilient flooring is securely bonded to the substrate. Refer to section 9.2.3 for additional information on direct-glue down installations.
    Note: Installing a second layer of finish flooring material, including some carpet types, can trap moisture and result in widespread failure, even over subfloors that previously had never shown signs of moisture or moisture-related problems.
    CAUTION: Some sheet vinyl, resilient tile and cut-back sphalt-based adhesive may contain asbestos and/or crystalline silica. Inhaling dusts from these materials creates a cancer and
    respiratory system hazard. Lacking documented evidence to the contrary, e.g., current testing, assume that these materials contain asbestos and treat them in the manner prescribed for removing floors containing asbestos. Recommended work practices prohibit sanding, dry scraping, bead-blasting or mechanically pulverizing resilient flooring, backing or lining
    felt. Do not use powered devices that create asbestos dust when removing “cut-back” or asphalt based adhesives. Removal procedures must comply with federal, state and local government agency regulations covering the removal and disposal of asbestos-containing materials (ACM).


    Lets also refer to:
    9.2 Additional Subfloor Requirements – Subfloors must be clean, dry, and with no cracks, existing adhesives and surface irregularities that might show through the finished installation or cause premature wear. The floor must be free from
    contaminants that may interfere with adhesion.

    CAUTION: Carpet, when bonded with an adhesive, follows every contour of a substrate, essentially forming a skin. Seemingly insignificant imperfections in a subfloor can become
    very obvious after the carpet is installed. Joints, cracks, depressions and protrusions that are not on an even, level plane may be unsightly and cause premature wear. Soil, dust, wax,
    oil, grease, moisture and other contaminants can prevent or otherwise destroy adhesion causing localized or widespread failure.

    Note: While some floor preparation is “normal,” it is not the floor covering installation contractor’s responsibility to correct deficiencies in the work of other tradesmen

    To my chagrin, I do not have Tandus (they own C&A Carpet now) installation specifications on my hard drive. I will have them Monday and post any appropriate comments in them. In the interim, here is a blurb form Shaw from their modular installation directives:
    CAUTION: Cutback asphaltic adhesive or any other non-approved adhesives must never be allowed to come into contact with Shaw Contract carpet modules or adhesives. Installation failure could result. If this situation arises, contact
    Shaw Industries Technical Services Department at 1-800-471-7429


    Now let's look at Ardex SD-F feather finish:
    SUBFLOOR PREPARATION
    All existing subfloors must be structurally sound, solid and completely clean to include the removal of waxes, sealers, curing compounds, patching compounds, dust, dirt, oil, or any contaminant which may act as a bond breaker. Where required, substrate preparation must be by mechanical means. Do not use sweeping compounds, solvents or acid etching as a means of surface preparation. Subfloors must also be dry and a minimum of 50°F.

    Consult the flooring manufacturer for the maximum allowable moisture content of the substrate and the recommended installation temperature.

    An adhesive residue over concrete must be tested to make certain it is not water-soluble and does not react with the new flooring adhesive. In addition, the new flooring must not be susceptible to bleed-through of cutback adhesive. With these criteria met, prepare the adhesive to a thin, well-bonded residue using the wet-scraping technique as recommended by the Resilient Floor Covering Institute. Any existing patches below the adhesive must be completely mechanically removed.


    For K-15:
    SUBFLOOR PREPARATION
    Gypsum, latex patches, asphalt, coal tar, and lightweight insulating concrete are not suitable substrates for the installation of ARDEX K-15.
    Concrete floors: Must be solid, thoroughly clean, free of oil, wax, grease, latex or gypsum patching compounds, curing and sealing compounds, or any contaminant which may act as a bond breaker before priming with ARDEX P-51 Primer. Overwatered, frozen or otherwise weak or contaminated concrete surfaces must be mechanically cleaned to a sound solid surface by shotblasting, scarifying or similar. Acid etching and the use of solvents are not acceptable means of cleaning the substrate.
    Non-porous floors, such as terrazzo, ceramic and quarry tile, certain power-troweled (burnished) concrete, and epoxy coatings: must be solid, well bonded, properly cleaned, and primed with ARDEX P-82 Ultra Prime. Steel decking should be rigid and treated with an anti-corrosive paint before priming with ARDEX P-82.
    Wooden subfloors and concrete contaminated with cutback adhesive: refer to the instructions for the installation of ARDEX K-15 over these substrates located under separate headings in this brochure.
    Note: All subfloors must be dry and properly primed for a successful installation. Substrate temperature must be a minimum of 50ºF for installation of ARDEX products. For further information, please refer to the ARDEX Substrate Preparation brochure. Always install an adequate number of properly located test areas, which include the finish flooring, to ensure the suitability of the system for its intended use. As floor coverings vary, contact and rely upon the floor covering manufacturer for specific directives, to include requirements such as maximum allowable moisture content, adhesive selection, and intended end use of the product.


    In light of this, if there is a failure and I am called in to inspect it, if I can verify a leaf blower and/or gypsum was used and/or adhesive was not removed and/or chemical adhesive remover was used, I absolutely will report that. To do anything other than that would truly be wrong.

    I respectfully submit if you cut corners and do not follow printed directives, you will find yourself wrong in a legal sense, which unfortunately will cost many dollars out of your pocket. If there is a conflict between the adhesive and the flooring manufacturers directives, I would not proceed without a written authorization to do so. You certainly are entitled to do so at your own risk, but remember in a court of law, you are the expert for your trade. My preference was always to use the floor manufacturers adhesive to preclude any potential conflict.

    Finally here is a somewhat comprehensive list of products I have extensive installation experience with, albeit not as an installer, but while the technical director (and an owner) of one of the largest flooring contractors in the country:
    Carpet: tufted, woven, unitaries (both regular and very high tuft bind formulations), all natures of cushioned backed ( both 6 & 12'), modular, flow on urethanes, rubber backed and static-dissipative.
    Resilient: Homogeneous PVC, layered PVC, rubber (sheet and tile) cork (sheet and tile), roto and inlaid vinyls, VCT, VAT (yes, I'm that old), Asphalt tile (yes I am really that old too!), Asphalt plank, Synthetic athletic flooring, elastomeric floorings, solid and layer vinyl tiles (including conductive and dissipative vinyls), linoleum.
    Wood: solid, engineered and parquets, all both finished and unfinished, nailed, glued and floated.
    Ceramic: vitreous, porcelain, stones (marble and granite), slate (both floor and wall for all products, but interiors only.)
    I'm sure I have forgotten more than a few other products. Please forgive me for that, the company was being run by the third generation (my brother and I) and was over 70 years old when we sold it. I'm guess I'm just a rookie.

    So I hope all forgive me the rant, but I do not wish to misconstrued as taking a mean spirited pot shot at Demonseed or speaking from a position of uninterested or uninformed bystander. I sincerely mean it when I say as an independent inspector I will report what I can document on any site I am commissioned to inspect. If corners have been cut, the floor will tell me everything I need to know.

    To all: I had to leave while in the midst of writing this and returned to finish and post it. I did not read the last 4 posts before I put this up. TFP ADMIN, if you feel any or all of this is not in spirit with our community, I defer to your judgment and understand any editing you deem appropriate.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2007
  16. Demonseed

    Demonseed Pro Member

    Re: tricks of the trade

    Can we all agree that you are not supposed to Glue down or install new material over old adhesive....

    Now, my last question on this, have you everinspected a job where the floor failed because some one skim coated over the old adhesive?
     
  17. Floorguy

    Floorguy The Living Dead Charter Member Senior Member

    Re: tricks of the trade

    The remaining residue should appear like a stain on the concrete and should be transparent.
     
  18. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Re: tricks of the trade

    Simple answer to that Demonseed, YES!

    Ardex was used mixed very thin, the first time it was cleaned the moisture caused the carpet to expand and it buckled up , pulling the patch loose.
     
  19. Peter Kodner

    Peter Kodner Inspector Floors Charter Member Senior Member

    Re: tricks of the trade

    I have also seen plasticizer migration on skimmed floors. Probably one of the biggest nightmares that can occur on a flooring project.
    "Bacon grease in a cold skillet" oozing up between carpet tile seams.
     
  20. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain Owner/Founder Administrator

    Re: tricks of the trade

    This has become a topic of its own. I hope you all don't mind.

    T
     
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