First Time Vinyl Job; Need Guidance

Discussion in 'Vinyl Flooring Q&A' started by go-rebels, Dec 8, 2017.

  1. go-rebels

    go-rebels Member

    Hello, first time poster here.

    I’m looking to lay some luxury vinyl tile in a walkout basement bathroom. Current flooring is vinyl sheet in good condition except for a large missing piece where I took out a wall. Question: do I fill-in the missing area and lay over or remove the existing flooring? Floor was laid when the house was built in 1997. Underneath is cement.

    There is a main bathroom area that joins to carpeting and another small hall that joins to two carpeted bathrooms and an outside door.

    There’s not much square footage here but lots of walls, an angled shower stall and potential undercutting. I can remove and reinstall the toilet. How do I transition to the carpeted areas and door?

    I’ve laid plenty of 3/4" hardwood and have a jamb saw if needed plus all kinds of power and hand tools.

    go-rebels_1ef51a3e52.jpg go-rebels_8b6a583a83.jpg go-rebels_bf931ca047.jpg go-rebels_c0f28b4fb9.jpg go-rebels_d97c54d167.jpg go-rebels_eda69df8d2.jpg
  2. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain Owner/Founder Administrator

    Sorry you had to wait for your post to be approved. You used external links, which caused an automatic move to the moderation queue for spam prevention. You should have used our free upload system (and maybe larger photos) to avoid delay.

    You didn't tell us what LVT you were going to use, or how it was going to be installed (floating, glue-down, etc.).

    Why is that area where you removed wall white? Is that paint? How easy or hard is it to remove all of the vinyl, or just the embossed, top layers? Your new flooring probably requires your substrate to be flat within 3/16" in 10'. You may be able to just fill and skim coat the existing floor with a good floor patching compound, but it might be better if all of the old flooring were removed.

    Please provide more details so our pros can help you better.
  3. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    I always feel better with one layer down at a time. I’ve seen plenty of floors over top of floors. A few recently partial vinyl removed and most left place the thinset that was used stuck way better to the sheet vinyl versus to the adhesive residue for ceramic.

    So all the intricacies have to be taken into account for the final decision to proceed with removal or going over.
  4. go-rebels

    go-rebels Member

    Jim, thanks for the hints for next time. As a newbie I didn’t even recognize that you had a photo uploader. That’s great!

    I would prefer to use a floating floor to avoid the mess and fumes related to glue. In addition, if I wanted to change the floor down in the future, removal would be easier.

    The small area of exposed cement was painted satin white to better match the color of the surrounding vinyl sheet. It’s been painted for 15 years.

    I checked the flatness of the vinyl floor using a metal 48" ruler. It appears to meet the 3/16" over 10’.

    I can run a hand scraper 2" under the edge then I hit what is probably glue. I suspect that there are swirls gf glue holding the existing vinyl floor down.

    I’m leaning towards a light colored click-n-fit type square vinyl tile but am open to all options. Maybe click-n-fit isn’t the easiest option for the small space and all the trimming?

    And how does one transition to existing carpet?

    Thanks all -

    Attached Files:

  5. Unfortunately there is not really a simple answer to your problem.

    Floating floors are not very good options in bathrooms. A primary concern would be the commode. There's no way to float up to it and leave an expansion gap around it. So, if you pull it and install the floor under it you've now created a pinch point that could lead to failure of the floor or worse a flood between the stool and drain. While it can be done and is done it's not really a good situation either way. You have a similar conundrum finishing up to the tub. You can use a rubber tub molding if you're ok with the visual, but it's just not a great installation.

    In addition you're going to have height issues transitioning to the other flooring. There are matching moldings for many of the products but in my mind it ends up looking like an "afterthought" or a repair because of the difference in height.

    If you go to a direct glue product such as luxury vinyl tile or plank or for that matter a new sheet flooring - now you have to deal with removal of the existing floor and the 15 year old paint. While this is definitely more laborious, in my opinion it's going to give you the best overall result and last longer than the floating option. It also allows you many more options than just going over the old floor.

    Just my two cents. Let's see what others have to say.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  6. phil verre

    phil verre Pro Member

    I could be mistaken, that existing floor looks like it could be an Armstrong 6' inlaid product? If you decide to install over you may want to confirm if it was a felt back full spread installation or a Designer Solarian II interflex perimeter bond installation. Probably full spread but worth checking to see if the center is bonded.
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain Owner/Founder Administrator

    That's 4 feet, not 10 feet. Is the existing vinyl embossed? If so, that's not flat either.
  8. go-rebels

    go-rebels Member

    335A3A26-EF31-46C1-9DAA-294CEB940636.jpeg OK, looks like glue down is my best option. I’ll forget about floating it.

    More questions...

    1) There are many videos on YouTube. Does anyone have any recommendations?
    2) Transitions to carpet: Do I need a transition piece or can I just start a row 1/4" from the existing tak strip?
    3) The total area is small. Would planks, squares or rectangles be easier to lay? Or is it purely aesthetics?
    4) I don’t have a good 10’ straight edge. What do y’all use? I can’t imagine you use a wooden 2x4.
    5) Should I undercut my straight section of wall or should I reinstall quarter round that was originally there? I understand that I’ll need to undercut my door jambs.
    6) I’ll butt one row to my shower stall which is at a ~45 degree angle. I imagine I’ll start there and work across to the other side. But it may be set at 39 degrees or 43 degrees. Do I copy the angle using a protractor or???
    7) I’ve laid 3/4" hardwood but that allows for trial and error and refitting. Can’t quite do that on a glued floor. The piece has to be right going down the first time. When you find you have to ‘rip’ 1/4" off a 2’ plank or trim 3/8" from an end, do you use a table saw with a plastic cutting blade?
    8) Material cost is not a big factor here. Can you recommend a premium manufacturer and grade? I’d like to purchase from a local floorer near me so I may need a few options.

    Sorry for all my questions. I’m an anal engineer and obsessively plan.

    Pic of my hardwood dining room floor I laid last Xmas shown at top.
  9. seamsealer

    seamsealer Pro Member

    What you said, it could be Solarian II in a perimerter glue. The glue would be tough to remove, but it would only be on a seam or just the perimeter.
  10. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    So your existing vinyl is 20 years old? Still intact everywhere you can see? Most likely there's a premium adhesive under there if it's felt backed goods like most residential vinyls. The perimeter glue system would be a huge bonus for you as far as demolition. EASY MONY. To test use a sharp utility kife and cut a little V shaped gouge out of it in the middle and try to wedge up the vinyl----not within 6 inches of a seam because there would be glue there. If I'm correct you will likely be able to peel ONLY the surface layer off and the felt backing will remain WELL adhered to the concrete.

    THIS test would be what I would use to decide if there's any possibility of an overlay-----no demo. Of course it's always best to get down to a bare slab and start fresh but I find quite often that felt backed vinyl properly adhered to a rough concrete slab can be next to impossible to scrape off. If there's felt underneath work from your wall section void and scrape with a 4" razor scraper to determine how well adhered it may be. You never know and IF it can be removed fairly easy you ABSOLUTELY want it gone.

    Besides asbestos those felt backings virtually melted into the rough finish of the slab are about the only circumstance that would allow for "overlay" systems in my opinion.

    Vinyl planks or tile (LVP/LVT) should not be directly adhered to existing vinyl. So the nex alternative is a slip sheet membrane like Versashield. Your situation would be a good candidate. You don't need any gap for expansion. The Versashield cuts net to anything and everything including existing threshold/moldings door jambs and............well, everything.

    Cutting door jambs for vinyl isn't necessary. Some guys will do it when it's a faster and cleaner install. I work in commercial construction where door jambs are almost universally metal-----we never cut them because it's always just easier to CUT NEAT.

    Takes a minute and some skill to make perfect cuts.
    Just do it.
  11. go-rebels

    go-rebels Member

    OK, I'm looking at the Mannington Adura Max Legacy White w/Gray in the 12" x 24" tile. Wifey loves the look. Does anyone have any experience with this product?

    Next, I need to find a local distributor. So far all I have found is the online weshipfloors dot com. Anybody have any experience with these guys?
  12. Steve Olson

    Steve Olson Hardwood/Laminate Guru Charter Member Senior Member

    Karndeen states this:
    • Like Like x 1
  13. go-rebels

    go-rebels Member

    I plan to remove the existing floor. It is a vinyl embossed product.

    I'll cut a section of my existing floor and see if it's felt backed.
  14. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    Thanks Steve.
    I was under the impression that LVT/LVP were not supposed to be installed over existing sheet vinyl or solid vinyl tiles.

    My boss generally won't do it regardless------------unless a special client would specifically go against our advice. If that blows up those customers will pay us for any fixes.
  15. go-rebels

    go-rebels Member

    So I was going to go with the Adura Max Legacy White w/Gray in the 12" x 24" tile but I find that this is a floating product, not meant for glue-down.

    How does an installer lay floating product under door jambs and under foot clearance under cabinets in a kitchen? It seems like a rubrics cube; click the joint and there's no clearance getting under the obstruction. ???

    Edit: (Maybe I need to follow the Mannington directions)

    When fitting under door casings, toe kick etc. plank must be modified using a small block plane. Remove a thin layer from the groove to allow tongue and groove to be flat fitted while keeping the integrity of the tongue and groove. After checking the fit apply a thin bead of MSS 20 seam sealer on the groove then slide planks together to seal the joint tight. Wipe any excess sealer off the surface. If necessary a flat pull bar may be used to assist in adjoining the modified planks. When fitting around obstacles or into irregular spaces, Adura® Max can be cut easily and cleanly using a multi tool or jigsaw. It is often beneficial to make a cardboard template of the area and transfer this pattern to the plank.
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2017
    • Funny Funny x 1
  16. go-rebels

    go-rebels Member

    Is it acceptable to just securely glue down the end of a tile/plank leaving 1/4" to the tack strip for carpet or do I need to use some type of thicker transition piece for the carpet to butt up against?
  17. Chris 45

    Chris 45 Director of P.R. on some deserted island. I Support TFP

    If you can get a clean line for the carpet to tuck to then do it. Instructions and warranty purposes will call for a reducer but I’m guessing that your bathroom isn’t that big of an area and won’t be getting much direct sunlight so you’ll probably be alright getting away with it.
  18. go-rebels

    go-rebels Member

    The bathroom is average sized, including an area for a toilet, and has no direct sunlight hitting it. I would prefer to not use a transition strip, instead just gluing down the neatly trimmed end of the plank/tile and butting the carpet to it. Then again, what do I know? This will be my first job.

    My local floorer wants $0.80 more per square foot than buying online (Adura Max Legacy White w/Gray.) I'm not certain if the support I get from them is worth the premium.
  19. Jeff Short

    Jeff Short Veteran Flooring Retailer

    Does the online price include shipping? That can be a considerable amount of money. What if there's a problem with the material (hidden damage from shipping/handling, etc...)? Your local guy should be able and willing to help with any questions or problems. Online sellers sometimes don't even actually handle the material, so once they get your money they may or may not feel obligated to help with any questions or problems. And don't glue it. It's a floating floor. Follow the manufacturers directions.
    • Like Like x 1
  20. go-rebels

    go-rebels Member

    Thx Jeff. How does one transition a floating floor against carpeting? Gotta use a transition strip or glue down the edge near the tak strip.


    In addition I would think that you would put the vinyl under the toilet. But wouldn’t you put a bead of sealer under the vinyl near the cutout drain hole to prevent a leak from going under the floating tile?

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