Engineered Hardwood over laminate pad?

Discussion in 'Hardwood & Laminate Sales and Installations' started by Steve Olson, Jan 27, 2017.

  1. Steve Olson

    Steve Olson Hardwood/Laminate Guru Charter Member Senior Member

    I was going over my schedule for next week, I'm doing an install of 3/8" Shaw engineered. It was all good until I saw the work order, and noticed he sold Floor Muffler underlayment, to be used in the nail down application.
    Anybody here have any hands on with this product? I'm thinking its a mistake, but I'm open minded.
     
  2. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    I briefly checked Floor Muffler's website, the name serves them well so they now have many types of "floor muffler" I clicked on one for engineered and it states for naildown applications. I've used regular for floating before but wouldn't use it for a naildown. So I'd verify which Floor Muffler product.

    Nice to have a heads up. I used to get a call, hey we're doing this product today, then load tools for specific product.
     
  3. Mill-End

    Mill-End Pro Member

    I would think it'd have to be a type of "pad" specifically designed for nail down wood. Many years ago I used the green FM pad for laminate and I would think that it would allow too much lateral movement with nail down and you'd have fastener problems (coming loose and/or squeaking). But I'm no engineer so I could be wrong. However I really don't see the point.
     
  4. Dan Schultz

    Dan Schultz Certified Wood Floor Inspector Charter Member

    Me too.

    Sometimes, salespeople sell. Isn't it their job to maximize profits in each sale? Sometimes the consumer asks for something to help make their floor quiet, without understanding how things work. Is the salesperson supposed to lose the sale because they didn't make the customer happy?

    Do the Shaw instructions specifically allow for this type product?

    Will Floor Muffler warranty squeaks and popping noises that are made when the groove side of the boards move vertically?
     
  5. Steve Olson

    Steve Olson Hardwood/Laminate Guru Charter Member Senior Member

    First thing out of the salesman's mouth was, " I want you to promise, not to bust my butt about details on this job, it's the first wood job I've sold"
    So, I went online and reviewed the Shaw installation spec's, reviewed the Floormuffler install specs, and warranty.
    Shaw spec's 15lb felt as the only "recommended" underlay, Floormuffler's warranty for replacement is for floating floors, for moisture damage, and only if the slab is emitting less then 3lbs verified by testing prior to install. The installation guide for the underlay used states to follow Manufactures Guidelines for installation.

    So, I called Shaw, spoke to Erin, who was very nice, but once I explained the proposed install over Floormuffler, she would only go as far as to say "It's not a recommended underlay" I mentioned that there is a difference between saying its not recommended and sayings its not going to be covered by Shaws warranty, but I didn't get what a feel was a defining answer to the usage. I asked to speak to one of the field techs. She seemed reluctant to do so, but finally connected me. I spoke with him at length, and he mentioned that they spec 15lb felt, as they know its a proven as suitable under the product, and that they can't test all of them, which didn't mean they would't work. But, he went on to state that his concern would be deflection, or movement over the underlay.
    I emailed all the documents I found, and the contacts I spoke to, the the salesman. The customer is the wife of a friend of mine, so I'd like them to have a quality install properly done.

    So, I realize that this might put the salesman in a bad spot, having to either explain to the customer he was wrong, or, put another installer on the install. Better that then dealing with the problems down the road.
     
  6. kwfloors

    kwfloors Fuzz on the brain Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Sounds like a glue together job over the pad to me.
     
  7. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    LL used to sell wood over pad, then I would get called to inspect for noise. LOL!!

    Over pad you will get noise as it allows deflection.:yesss: The wood then squeaks on the fasteners.
     
  8. Steve Olson

    Steve Olson Hardwood/Laminate Guru Charter Member Senior Member


    Yes sir, that is what I told them too. But the salespeople didn't want to believe me. So, I dug up the spec's as stated, and emailed them to the salesman who sold the job. I was at the shop about 3:30 today making the cuts for tonight's Pharmacy install of Tekno floor, and I expected some conversation from him. Nope, not a word. Hmmm.
    But. moments ago, I checked my email, had a reply from him, a single sentence. He asked "Are we good, with the pad"

    I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT TO SAY....
     
  9. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    So no one has addressed my question/statement about different types of "Floor Muffler" that's like saying use Ardex for that, hand me that Crescent wrench, build that wall! When you have someone with attention to detail, all things go smoothly.

    When you don't pay someone what they're worth, they quit and you get a ying yang that can't tell the difference between let and hardwood problems occur. Who's the ying yang working for you?
     
  10. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain Owner/Founder Administrator

    Yeah! Hey Steve, which one of the 11 different FloorMuffler products is the one they want you to use? The quietCure quality (available both with and without UltraSeal self-sealing lip & tape system) is part of their Professional collection. It is touted as suitable for engineered and solid hardwood nail-down installations. Unfortunately, there is no mention of nail-down use in the warranty information. Of course, even the floating floor warranty specifically excludes nearly everything the product is marketed to do. :(
     
  11. Steve Olson

    Steve Olson Hardwood/Laminate Guru Charter Member Senior Member

    Geez guys you 2 read about as good as the salesman did, lol. If you glance at Step 5, it says:
    I actually asked which Floor Muffler he ordered, he said, I don't know, the one we always use. The one we always use is the Premium Floormuffler.
    And, as I said, the field tech I spoke too, Charlie, said that: 1) Shaw SPECS 15 lb saturated felt. 2) Use of the Floormuffler could cause deflection which leads to failure.

    Is that a hypothetical question, or would you like his contact info?

    Jim you're right, the Quietcure with Ultra Seal is different. You have to go to Step 6 to see this.
    The boss and I discussed the different options, for now, we'll use the 15lb felt, but I don't know if they've run that past the customer, seeing how they sold her on the Floormuffler. It was my thought they would be better of using the Taylor MS Plus, it's been my experience its does a great job of sound deadening, and no noise from movement, but, the cost of the glue is something the shop or salesman, would have to absorb. Easy for me to say...
     
  12. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain Owner/Founder Administrator

    :eh: Reading instructions is over-rated.
     
  13. Chris 45

    Chris 45 Director of P.R. on some deserted island. I Support TFP

    Pretty sure step 1 through 4 says: Install the flooring per the flooring manufacturer’s instructions.;)
     
  14. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    If the salesperson cared about detail work he could put a system together with Floormuffler brand product designed for naildown hardwood. Of course not laminate or floating sound Muffler that compresses easily.

    I didn't read the Shaws recommendations, only FM's. And only after seeing the actual product would I risk the decision to proceed, of course that would be told to all parties for agreement.

    The MS plus is a good product, I wouldn't mind ripping it up one day stuck to plywood. I've yet to rip one up with that adhesive but it's silane based and I believe it would be somewhat soft, way easier than urethane which would destroy substrate. Latex adhesive or acrylic would be a little more difficult than the MS plus.

    We ripped up ceramic tile the other day with crack suppression membrane which sounded hollow, so I'm Leary about all this noise reduction stuff. Regular gluedown hardwood is not noisy on a slab. Over plywood it's going to make noise and I would think expected to make noise of a wood floor.

    So my question, the saturated felt would be more quiet than the wrong floor Muffler, or maybe equivalent to the floormuffler specifically made for naildown which is probably thinner and more dense yet costs far more than roofing felt.
     
  15. Steve Olson

    Steve Olson Hardwood/Laminate Guru Charter Member Senior Member

    I haven't seen any other product them the Premium Floormuffler, which I've used for many floating installs over the years. As a pad for floating floors, I like it. The edges are straight and it lays down nice, but, my opinion is, they aren't worth the extra money over the base grade U/L. They do make some difference, but it's sure not an overwhelming, Oh my God, thats amazing, difference. Just putting all the furnishings seems to help more; just my opinion.

    Regardless, I'll stick to what I know works.
     
  16. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    Yes I agree, I think the difference is from base cheap grade foam and then other products get quieter. Floor Muffler would be a minimum for me for floating, put down a bit of expensive styrofoam.
     
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