DuPont SmartStrand Vs. Shaw Tuftex

Discussion in 'Carpet Q&A' started by eyal8r, Nov 18, 2008.

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  1. eyal8r

    eyal8r Active Member

    ok- how about this approach... instead of criticizing me for looking for a 'cheaper price'- how about inform me of what to look for in a 'good installer', other than just simply paying more money? You don't ALWAYS get what you pay for. I could go to the guy who bid me $1300 and ask to pay him $2000 MORE and I can promise you he'll install it just the same, and pocket the $2k. Just because it's a higher price- doesn't mean it's higher quality labor. You guys already explained that you throw out higher, bogus numbers over the phone- so how do those nuimbers correlate to installation quality? They dont. They won't go hire a better installer to do a better job because they 'suckered' me into paying more. Right???

    So- what do I look for, what do I ask to make sure I get a good, QUALITY installation here?

    Peter- that's great info- I appreciate it very much! No one has explained that to me at all. In your experience then, what is more 'stain resistant' overall for a normal living room installation scenario? The crushing/matting you're talking about- does that include everyday WALKING on it? Or, just where furniture may have sat on it for extended periods of time? Will it be crushed/matted down in all traffic areas after a year? Will it be able to be restored just by vacuuming?

    Same questions on the Shaw Tuftex- will it crush/mat from everyday traffic?

    Some of you are suggesting we go with a 'cheaper' carpet. What do you recommend? What defines 'cheaper' in your book? Will it stain/wear/crush/mat easier since it's a lower quality? All I know is that, apparently, we have a 'cheaper' carpet in our house now- and after a year, it looked like trash. If we're spending the money to do this- I don't want to be in the same boat we're in now a year or two from now when we're ready to move... So what carpet is 'cheaper' that will hold up very well in comparison to the stuff I'm looking at?

    Thanks a ton- this has been VERY insightful!
  2. eyal8r

    eyal8r Active Member

    Let me clarify to my questions about hiring labor. PLEASE do not take this as an attack, offensive, or condescending! If they are licensed, bonded, insured, and use a power stretcher- how greatly can one installer vary from the other? I mean really- they seam the carpet, they cut it to size so there's no gaps- the edges fit under wall boards and but against some tile. I know it's not NEARLY as easy as you'd think- but- if they're all using the same equipment and doing the same line of work- how much can it REALLY vary from one guy to the other? Again, not trying to argue, just trying to understand what problems can arise, and how to hire 'more expensive' labor to do the job correctly...
  3. eyal8r

    eyal8r Active Member

    ... keep in mind, too- I'm coming from a Real Estate background here. Just because someone is offering $300k for a house doesn't mean that it's a more quality, better built house than the neighbor who is asking $250k. So if you can explain to me why a 'more expensive' bid is better- or, tell me what to look for to find a better installer.
  4. cproader

    cproader All over T's last nerve Senior Member

  5. Jackreed

    Jackreed jackreed Charter Member

    OK I've been wacthing this thread and I'm a little confused. eya18r what size is your room. In one post you state 300 sq ft. In another you stated 252 sq ft. With the prices you post in the begining for carpet and pad that would be a difference of $208.00. In my area at $4.33sq ft. some of my customers pay that much and less for carpet they will have for 10 to 15 years. There may or may not be a difference in quaility of workmanship between a installer thats cheaper or one thats higher. Can there be a difference between two installers that use a power stretcher? You bet there can. I don't care what they charge if they don't know how to use it they just as well use a knee kicker. I've went behind different installers and restretched within a year. And they used a power stretcher. As far as I'm concerned carpet can be some of the most labor intensive to install. First just the wieght alone. Second there is more to seaming then just putting it together. Not every carpet seams perfectly, but the customer expects it that way. I can spend 1 1/2 to 2 hours putting together a 20 to 25 ft seam with three fill pieces. It involves row cuting all pieces to sealing all edges and pre stretching. That done now let's heat tape it together. Now we are ready to strech it all in and let's hope it don't peak so it shows like crazy. Buy a lesser grade nylon carpet if your only going to be there one or two years. Get referals from the different installers you talk to. Ask them if they warranty thier work. In my state it's law one year warrany on workmanship. This is the most I've every posted at one time.
  6. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Let's compare it to a realtor. In my area there is a company that claims they will sell your house for $900 + 1%, other realtors get the standard 7% and some will do it for 5%. Now as a realtor, do you honestly think all three are going to give you the same service? Of course not, let's not be rediculous!!

    It is the same with installers, the cheap guy will cut every corner he can, from proper cleaning, acclimation, reinforcing/replacing tackstrip, row cutting, seam sealing, power stretching, latex in the gully at exposed edges, clean up at the end of the job. If you want the best, be prepared to pay for it!! NO ONE ever drove a Mercedes Benz out of the showroom when they paid a Yugo price.

    Using the same anaology of a realtor, when discussing the HD, if you are the broker, listing agent and the selling agent you make the WHOLE 7%, correct?

    If you are just the listing agent you have to split that commission with several others. Do you take as much interest and do as much work as you would if you got the whole 7%? I didn't think so!! Now with HD. They take a cut, the measure service takes a cut, the workroom takes a cut, and IF there is anything left the installer gets something. He is NOT going to take as much care as if you hired him direct and paid a little more.

    Hope this help!!
  7. eyal8r

    eyal8r Active Member

    If I measure EXACTLY the flooring I need- it's 252sf. However, I didn't know if they inclue 20% extra. Or, as I explained earlier, I have a wing that flares out and was hoping they could seam that little triangle in, instead of taking the rest of the room 4' longer just for that little corner piece. So, worse case it's about 300sf.

    I think the overall theme you guys are telling me is to find a 'cheaper' nylon carpet, but pay more for the labor to install. No one has explained how I can tell if someone is better at labor over someone else, or, if they're crappy at the labor and just jacking the price up on me.
  8. Daris Mulkin

    Daris Mulkin The One and Only Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Go to the Carpet and Rug Institute [] and read the instructions in the cri 105. That is pretty much how it is to be done if up to standards. It is about a 40 page download if you so to choose. Anyway I have found most installers don't know what you are talking about when you ask about the CRI. Most maybe a strong word, lets say alot instead. The reason I say this is I travel a lot doing installer trainings. But again ask for referrals from the installer who will back up his skill level and call them. You are interviewing someone for a job in your company is the way it should be handled.
    Hope this helps. Remember store never send out their worst installer!

    Last edited: Nov 20, 2008
  9. I think all of us are confusing the customer.

    Cheap is Cheap you are looking at moving in 2 years I would say you will either need to clean it in twice in 2 years or buy cheap and replace the cheap with cheap and be left with cheap carpet.

    If you get a nicer carpet that is in your price range why not just get that carpet.:yesss: You will have a nice carpet it will show well perform well help your home maybe sell. I like the sorona for this reason it cleans well you wont have stain issues how much are you going to wear it out in 2 years lab tests and 4 or 5 years of being in the market and we dont have major wearability problems.

    Sorona is softer than most nylons, they are almost all frizzaes of california berbers so they tend to look the same years later. and how about this a 6 lb pad will feel better under your foot and your carpet wont wear as fast and you will probably save 15 cent a yard saving you money.

    How I got your sq ft earlier is easy 15*20 or a 16*21 is what it sounds like you need.

    Basically you could buy cheap nylon but you get a cheap nylon and will have to replace it in 2 years to sell your home. if the cheap nylon is 2 a sq ft installed and the nicer sorona is 4 you get it cleaned 2 times that is 50 cents a sq ft so the total price now is around 4.50 and you have a nice carpet or you could pay 50 cents less over all and have cheap carpet.
  10. eyal8r

    eyal8r Active Member

    Now THAT makes sense to me. Everything except the 6lb pad part. I thought the 8# was better? Will the 6# feel softer under your feet? What's the benefits/drawbacks of it?
  11. stullis

    stullis Charter Member Senior Member

    Now you got me confused CFD. LOL

    Flipped 300+ homes and don't know a good installer?? :rolleyes:

    Carpet is sold typically in 12 foot widths you may have to buy 30 lineal ft. That would amount to 360 ft. :eek: Or maybe you can get by with 20 lineal ft or perhaps 22.5 ln. ft., we just dont' know for sure without actually seeing the room and exactly what material you wish to use. YOU need to make a decision. :yesss:

    Carpet is sold in different weights, different fibers, different backings, different widths, different patterns and all will be at various price points. I'd suggest you pick something out you and your wife like and go with that. You plan to move in a couple of years but what if you don't? At least you will have a product you like. You can often move up and down in quality and still get the same "look" by choosing one with less weight.

    As has been suggested a better quality pad will help a lower quality carpet feel and look better longer. You can get by with a cheaper pad but for very little money more ($20-40) you can get a nicer pad. Money well spent.

    As far as an installer do as Daris said, find someone you are comfortable with having in your home and trust, ask for references and check those out, ask friends, co-workers, neighbors, etc. if they know anyone they would recommend. Price-wise it is a crap shoot but generally if they charge more they do better quality. Ask them why they charge what they do. Do their answers make sense?

    Quality of the materials they use, like tackstrip and seam tape can effect the pricing. Prep, delivery, layout and size of the area, material contruction, backing, removal and disposal all can play a part in the cost. How far do they have to travel to get to your job, do they vacuum, any transition pieces needed, how many feet of seams, wood or concrete subfloor, all have an effect on price or should.
    Sure you can get plenty of quotes that will leave out plenty to get the job and then get hit with extras on the final bill or maybe you got an installer who gave you a complete quote could be why you are getting such price ranges as well as just getting rid of small job price shoppers. Not all installers do the same type of work, some do just big jobs others do smaller ones, some only do certain types of material such as wool or woven carpets, some do just cut piles and no berbers.

    How do you know your doctor or dentist is any good? Why don't you price shop the heck out of them? ;)
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2008
  12. 8 lb pad wears better the pad that is. you will get less movement in the carpet and have less need for restretch issues becuase of this. 6lb gives more cushion and depending on what type of carpet you buy the carpet manufacturers will reccomend a 6lb such as a plush or frizzae or california berber. Berber 8lb 3/8 thinner pads have less movement overall. The down side of 8lb bonded is the lack of cushion has great support doesnt wear out but doesnt have as much cushion. Some carpets need more cushion than others some require more support. Some dealers sell a 7/16 lb pad because less movement and they dont need to carry 2 pads the have 1 and it is a precieved value.
  13. eyal8r

    eyal8r Active Member

    Again, not that it's anyone's business- but the installers I used for my house flipping were CHEAP. I wouldn't want them to install in my personal house- but they did the job for rental property owners. I don't understand why I'm getting soo much criticism over house flipping. The guy who blamed me and house flipping for the financial crisis we're in cracks me up. I'm SURE he didn't benefit at ALL from the housing/rehabbing boom 2-3 years ago- seeing as how he's in the flooring industry. I'm SURE he didn't see an increase in business/paychecks during those 'tough' times. Can we just let it go and stay on topic here? Jeez...

    Right- I agree. I think spend the extra $40 for the higher quality pad. It's probably required in the carpet warranty- not that I plan on ever trying to use that warranty. And, you're right- what IF we don't move in 1-2 years? I'd rather have a nice carpet we enjoy during this time- and spend less on new carpet when we leave, or, professional carpet cleaners during our stay.

    My wife and I HAVE picked out the carpets we like- hence, the purpose of this thread. Which is better quality and will last/wear/stain protect better? Is it safe to say that BOTH are decent carpets? Is it safe to say that until they actually do the job, I won't REALLY know what type of work they'll do for me- certainly can't judge that solely off the price quote alone. After my 300+ houses I've flipped- I've paid contractors WAY more than they deserved, based off the work they gave me. I've also been shocked at the work some guys have done and how cheap they did it. Price doesn't always dictate quality.

    You guys have helped me out and told me to make sure they are licensed, use a power stretcher, check references and the ROC. Beyond that, that's all I can do to find out what kind of quality I can expect, correct? I'm going to showrooms of 2 places today, I'll drill them with questions. I'll also try to upload a diagram of my room. Maybe someone can explain EXACTLY how much carpet these guys shouild charge me for. After all the 'price shopping' I've done, it seems as though they could easily quote me a cheap price, but then 'order' more carpet than I need to make up the price difference and get more out of me. I'd appreciate some non-biased pros here telling me how to determine how much they need to order.
    Thanks for all the help! I really do appreciate it!
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