Don't stretch the width?

Discussion in 'Carpet Q&A' started by Floorguy, May 25, 2006.

  1. Floorguy

    Floorguy The Living Dead Charter Member Senior Member

    Anyone install Masland contract carpet lately?

    In the instruction paper in the roll, it says to get 1-1½% in the length, but snug tight in the width to prevent seam highlighting & peaking.

    It also says, "over stretching the carpet in the width will increase the probability of seam peaking. :eek:


    They must have learned from all the guys I followed around restretching the widths after wrinkles appeared from only powerstretching the lengths and kicking the width, so they wouldn't get called back for a peaked seam. Instead I get called to go restretch buckles in the width. :help:
     
  2. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain Owner/Founder Administrator

    Is it a standard ActionBac or something else? Anything different about it?

    Jim
     
  3. Floorguy

    Floorguy The Living Dead Charter Member Senior Member

    Nothing real special, 8 pick actionbac.

    I believe it to be the same stuff Stephen was doing, where he couldn't get a row drawn through it, because of the small loop, looped around the bigger loop, Or loop entanglement.

    Here is the front, and the battery died in my cammera before I could get a good picture of the backing. My camera or my floppy disc is messed up and file errors the second and third pictures. It just started doing it.
     

    Attached Files:

  4. mcurrin

    mcurrin Guest

    You know, this is one of the things I have always disagreed with. It has been my experience that carpet simply does not stretch as much in width as in length. I know things were different when I installed but I never had a problem with seam peaking. This was before 6 inch irons and I used a flat iron. I waited more than 20 seconds to stretch the carpet. I sometimes would have a return call for wrinkling (probably less than 5 in a decade of installations) but that was a simple restretch repair. I did always stretch the width, just not as much as in length. Some times simple truths get over looked by those forming standards. I also always stretched the length first and the width last. If the CRI standard had called for 1/2 to 1 percent in width stretches many carpets would have never peaked or wrinkled. Also I noted in my new copy of CRI 104 and 105 IICRC was involved in writing the standards. I think it is a mistake to have a cleaning organization involved with installation standards.

    Just my opinion

    Mike
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 25, 2006
  5. DJ

    DJ Charter Member

    i always stretch the length first also,then width last.stretching away from the seam(if there is one)the last masland carpet was hard to stretch though:mad: if remember right too much latex or something i never "kicked carpet":eek: ex cept stairs...dj
     
  6. Floorguy

    Floorguy The Living Dead Charter Member Senior Member

    This stuff is very stretchy. Like a rubberband.
     
  7. rusty baker

    rusty baker Well-Known Member

    Some of the berbers have so much latex in the back that you cannot get the amount of stretch recommended. and of course sofbac will not stretch that much either. maybe standards should be written by installers. Of course there are a lot of installation rules that do not work in the real world. Like having the carpet laid out in an occupied for 24 hours.
     
  8. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain Owner/Founder Administrator

    Well, I'd stretch the width best I could regardless of what Masland suggested. They are covering their butt and I would cover mine. I hate call-backs.

    Jim
     
  9. Lo Down

    Lo Down Old as dirt member Charter Member Senior Member

    Customers asking for restretches are always amazed when I suggest (over the phone without having seen the job), that all the wrinkles run in the same direction............... I tell them that I am also a psychic. Inadequate stretching width wise is the cause............................... Why do I know? 2 restretches of my own work in 30 years sums it up fairly well. (bragging whenever I see an opportunity)
     
  10. Jim Dandy

    Jim Dandy Mike Rowe eat your heart out! Charter Member

    Stretchy?

    Are you sure it's a regular action-bac?

    The only reason I ask is that I have installed some custom tufted stuff that has almost pure latex. For that snug is fine.

    The pic count or lines in the backing are from a molded press not actuall fibers of polyproplyene.

    Just a possibility; I would call Masland if you were uncertain.

    JD
     
  11. Floorguy

    Floorguy The Living Dead Charter Member Senior Member

    It is an 8 pick action back

    Here, I went and took some pictures for you.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. Lo Down

    Lo Down Old as dirt member Charter Member Senior Member

    Looks like they don't want you to stretch the carpet 'cause it will make the backing fall off even quicker.
     
  13. Floorguy

    Floorguy The Living Dead Charter Member Senior Member

    I had to really pull it to get it to start to come off.
     
  14. Lo Down

    Lo Down Old as dirt member Charter Member Senior Member

    ...on a second look, the backing actually looks pretty nice. I misinterpreted the second photo and thought you were showing the backing was loose.
     
  15. Lea MacDonald

    Lea MacDonald Charter Member Published

    I found the post from Floorguy (aged flatulence) to be most interesting because it points to a symptom which is generally a condition of sickness.

    In this case it points to problems with seam peaking which points to two possible sicknesses: improper stretching specifications - one to one and a half percent, OR, the fact that the laws of physics cannot be overcome by current seaming methodologies despite the fact many uninformed mill reps feel they can.

    Interestingly, either case is not a byproduct of poor installation. This is immutable fact. Sadly though, poorly trained mill reps will beg to differ and in many past cases have caused installers to either pay for something they had no control over or caused the installer to lose their job when the installer refused to admit culpability.

    I've been to court twice on seam peaking problems where the customer refused to pay because an inspection report said the installer was at fault. In both cases my client prevailed with dismissal and costs awarded. I charged my clients hard for my service - beer and a dinner.

    One called me the eleventh commandment: "Thou shalt not get away with it."

    And they didn't. :)
     
  16. J Jeff Johnson

    J Jeff Johnson seriously disturbed toon Charter Member

    all i wanna know is ///if ya stretched the weft as hard as you could////// and then finnished the warp///// as hard as you could........would anything change?



    If so why?


    If not, why care.......................?
    Since that what the manu's want.....
     
  17. Lea MacDonald

    Lea MacDonald Charter Member Published

    I'll take a shot at an answer.

    From my perspective if one were to stretch the weft then finish in the warp direction you'd likely have bubble problems at some time. Let me explain.

    Say, for instance, the room is 24 x 12 and you set and stretched the weft. Well, when you went to stretch the wrap direction, which is twice the length of the weft, you'd have already pinned the carpet thus keeping it from receiving the appropriate amount of stretch in the warp direction along the opposing weft/wall margins.

    If you reversed this scenario, it would likely be okay unless you had a room that was over-sized and you ended up putting that type of stretch across a seam. Of course, the seam would hump up like a dog having a racy encounter with your leg. :)
     
  18. J Jeff Johnson

    J Jeff Johnson seriously disturbed toon Charter Member

    Yes Lea I agree. A room with those dimensions might pose a problem. My reply was sort of Devil's Advocate because I read that some manu's would rather you stretch weft first. As I understand, not stretching the weft properly produces wrinkles in the warp direction, which is the most observed wrinkle direction.

    I would think also that a pattern carpet might bow in the warp pattern producing ill effects if stretched weft first as stated in your example above.:coffee:
     
  19. Lea MacDonald

    Lea MacDonald Charter Member Published

    Hello Jeff, one other note. I do find it most interesting that Masland is now suggesting that the weft should not be stretched as much as the warp. It really does take guts to fly in the face of a standard that has been so widely accepted. They, however, are doing it for good reason.

    It was not until the wide use of power stretching ( of 1 to 1 and a half percent) that seam peaking became an industry-wide concern. Mind you, many guys encountered seam peaking outside the use of a power stretcher; guys who kick like mules and know how to properly set and stretch a room, but failed to ease off a bit when their seams started to peak.

    When stretching in the warp direction I stop my stretch at the point where my seam starts to peak. Period. The stretch falls off over the first 24 hours and the seam will generally stay flat and the carpet will stay snug.

    I can't blame guys for sticking to an industry standard to cover their nethermost orifice. After all it's a standard. But in light of the difficulties found in doing so, one can reasonably conclude that the standard should be reintroduced as a best standard OR practice. I'll explain.

    In many industries there are standards and practices. When a standard - for whatever reason - does not serve the immediate need, then a best practice is used. It should also be this way for our industry.

    It's often been said that you can tell a lot about an installer by how many standards he sticks to. This is true for the most part. But you can also tell a lot about an installer who sticks to standards outside of good judgement - the buy-the-book guys that sight standards word and verse outside of a best practice being considered.

    It's not their fault really, because we have inspectors - in many cases paid by the mills - who are paid to insure that standards have been used. In one instance an inspector who was viewing a peaking problem said, "We don't manufacture carpet with seams in it so a peaking seam is the problem of the installer." In this case I took out the CRI standards and slapped him silly with it sighting that it was indeed the very standard perscribed by *his* group (mill supported CRI) that said carpet should be stretched to 1 to 1 and a half percent. I explained why seams peak, told him how the stretch caused this to happen - the more stretch, the higher the peak until the tape and mean line of stress line up. "Oh." said he as he packed his stuff leaving the installer and myself with the customer. I asked the customer if they understood. Well, he did. I then asked what he'd do to make the peak go away. His answer was simple and elegent, "I'd reduce the tension across the seam." We did, and the seam laid flat. The installer did what Masland is now suggesting, he put less tension in the warp direction where a seam was involved.

    Despite the carpet having been installed for a few months, it still had significant tension on it. Once the wall was released the seam laid down. The installer then released the opposing wall and bunted it back onto the pins with his kicker then walked the pins. He then took his power stretcher and only stretched the carpet to the point where the seam started to peak. At the end of the day the customer was made happy and the installer, to his extreme credit, gave the customer a full warranty and returned twice over the course of that year to make sure everything was fine. I remained so. In this case a best practice won the day.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2006
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