Differences between CRI-105 and British Standards 5325 for stretching carpet

Discussion in 'Industry News, Training & Organizations' started by rusty baker, Jan 3, 2010.

  1. mcbrides

    mcbrides Canadian Installers Senior Member

    No, David, you aren't even close. We are simply frustrated with the lacksidasical attitudes we see from the dealers regarding the quality (or lack thereof) of their installations.

    The quality of our work is consistent ~ we do not compromise our rates to get the work, the work we get is based upon the quality and professionalism we demonstrate in this business. Our phone has been ringing off the hook with repeat and referral customers who want us to do their next project. We are spending most of this week running around sampling and quoting; by week's end, we will have most of the month booked.

    If we are sitting on a fence, we are sitting on our own fence, proclaiming that we will do it right, and we will guarantee it in writing, but we will not do it cheaper.

  2. rusty baker

    rusty baker Well-Known Member

    Some people seem to assume because a carpet is kicked, there will be a problem. I think it all boils down to who is doing it. I have seen kicked-in carpet that was still tight years later and have seen power-stretched that wasn't. I power stretch but I don't automatically assume that someone kicking is doing a bad job.
  3. mcbrides

    mcbrides Canadian Installers Senior Member

    They say a picture is worth a thousand words ...


    Yanch capping_0002.jpg

    Yanch stairs_0003.jpg
  4. David Hunt

    David Hunt Charter Member Senior Member Published

    Please, let us not misunderstand, never did I mean to imply the quality of the McBrides work was inferior. To the contrary!

    The issue here is, documented standards, British, American and manufacture specified exist for every facet of our trade. Installers who seek to deliver services in compliance with these standards face opposition from one place and one place only, the retailer.

    The 'typical' retailer loves to talk about quality and professionalism, yet, when it comes to paying for it, they sing a different tune. For the quality minded installation professional, like the McBrides, like myself, like most everyone here, this double standard is extremely frustrating. On this I am certain we can all agree?

    My point remains; from my own observations and experience, this is a problem that can only be resolved in one of three ways. Either as the installation professional we need to lower our standards in proportion to the pay being offered. Find new resources and avenues for work where our services will be valued, appreciated and properly compensated or leave the trade completely and seek other avenues of employment.

    But to continue to attempt to deliver top quality work with the hopes that someday the leopard will change its spots is a not an plan that will deliver peace of mind or profits.

    Seriously, every installer wants to do good work and be paid fifteen to twenty dollars per yard for doing it and they should get paid at least that much. Many do! But, in order for this to happen, one of the two individuals in this discussion must change the way they are currently operating. Either the retailer must change or the installer must change. The reality of life is, the only person 'we' have the power to change is the one we see in the mirror.

    If we always do, what we've always done, we're always going to get what we've always got! If what we are doing isn't working for us, we need to be doing something different. Making the only real question, WHAT?



    PS: Deb & Dave, please know, I have nothing but the highest level of respect for you both and what you do and all my posts to you are intended to assist and encourage towards a better, happier life.
  5. mcbrides

    mcbrides Canadian Installers Senior Member

    No offense taken, David.

    $15-$20/yard? In our dreams. We get paid more than most, and that is in the same range that Tia and Rusty have spoken of: $4.25-$4.50/sy.

    We enjoyed a great deal of direct sales/installations in '09, and there is no reason that with a little more self-promotion, we cannot continue to capture that market segment again in '10 ~ let the retailers who are not willing to pay for quality deal with their installation failures. We have aligned ourselves with another Carpet One, a little out of town, who is willing to pay our rates, no questions asked. Between the two, we will be fine.
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2010
  6. Ed

    Ed Charter Member

    Deb, I would think on the jobs you are selling in, you would be getting very close to the 15 dobby spoke of.
  7. mcbrides

    mcbrides Canadian Installers Senior Member

    Actually, Ed, not quite. Every product has a different profit percentage between posted retail and our contractor pricing, I find a number somewhere in between, but still discounted off retail ~ the customer perceives that they are getting a deal (which they ARE), and we are getting our full retail installation plus margin. Quite often it works out to something like cost + install fee x 2. Nice profit, but it is not our intention to retire off each job, but provide good value and service so our clientele come back for more and tell all their friends ...
  8. strip buster

    strip buster my way is the best way. Charter Member

    not a truer word spoken.
  9. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Aren't standards only a guide line for if something goes wrong? Something that say an inspector can measure and define as a standard instead of an inspector saying in his opinions this product, floor is fine. Ten inspectors, ten "opinions"? There are many examples where standards are needed. Was the building built to a certain standard? Was my car built to a certain standard to make it safe for me to drive? Was the floor up to standard before this type of flooring was laid on it? Was the workmanship to a certain standard? There has to be something in writing that states certain facts to prevent people, maybe the customer who's standards, expecations are too high saying "this" isn't good enough. There has to be something in writing that prevents this "in my opinion" when someone inspects something
  10. Barry Carlton

    Barry Carlton I Support TFP Senior Member Published

    Excellent way to look at it Jon. Most installers view the standards as restrictive when in fact they can actually be a protection, if followed.

    Good post!!!
  11. strip buster

    strip buster my way is the best way. Charter Member

    what have you done across the lake Jon? kick in anything lees than 5m? (curious- there are so many of ur lads here and i've only seen one with a power stretcher-he uses it sparingly).
  12. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Most of the guys here use kneekickers I think? I hear some guys saying they have to take a power stretcher for that type of carpet but I don't really take notice
  13. strip buster

    strip buster my way is the best way. Charter Member

    one of ur lads is returning home to teach-(hearsay and 2nd hand info)but i worked with him many times.....good bloke but lacked in cpt(ran rings round him)vinyl was good but nothing great....do you guys have a 'school'for fitters there or is it a tafe styled programme ?
  14. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    We have a Training School which is really a finishing school run by the National Flooring Assoc but I think its mostly voluntary help. I have been outside this area for years and not up with the play
  15. strip buster

    strip buster my way is the best way. Charter Member

    word is 'by he's good friend here' also a good bloke,.100k per.....Jon, goin back to standards- like here- do you leave them in the back of ur head and do what you think is best?-----regardless
  16. Jon Scanlan

    Jon Scanlan That Kiwi Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

  17. strip buster

    strip buster my way is the best way. Charter Member

    ok,so how do you install cpt when u do?-,

    so even though i, am meant to go by uk standards-never seen them- nor has anyone at work or anyone in higher power(at the place i do work for)....we do what we do, install the way we believe is best regardless of what any one dictates to us in person or from the study there at now.
    .....every installer has a reason for why they install the way they do.-good or bad- is only an opinion and opinions change all the time...... the person that sits home with no work cuz they refuse to do anything less than powerstretch and his neighbour who kicks it in for a bit less with a new bag a tools and a bigger bank balance and with a lot of work ahead and still has a good rep just like his powerstretching neighbour....who would u want to be.the fit kicker with work or the proud stretcher guy miserable always complaining his neighbour took it all away?
    we are all accountable for our own income and to tell someone to put there rates up because you want or need them to is irresponsable at best. ....this isn't a union site is it? why does anyone have the need to tell others how to install or what to charge if there isn't a whole body of installers there to drive up prices?....what happens to said installer-i drove up the price and went broke cause no one else did-. ......it is what it is. the debate will go in circles ,
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2010
  18. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Strip, I get the impression from your latest post as well as other posts that you do not live by anyone's rules. You think whatever you want to do is ok because if you are not agreed with it is just opinion.

    Therefore, there is no right or wrong. How do you think it will work the next time I am stopped for speeding and I tell the officer oh that is just your opinion and drive off. I know there is laws about that but I have never read it therefore, it does not apply to me.:confused:
  19. Peter Kodner

    Peter Kodner Inspector Floors Charter Member Senior Member

    As it is said: "Igonorance is bliss.", until you get caught.

    Can we all agree on what "standard" means? I propose, for the sake of discussion here, this: "something considered by an authority or by general consent as a basis of comparison; an approved model." I copied it from Dictionary.com and interestingly, it was the first definition.

    We can argue forever about the content of the CRI "Standards" but is there any valid argument that they are not the industry and public documents? Outside of individual mills directives (which do supersede them), they are the only published carpet installation standard in the US I am aware of.

    As the documents of choice within the industry, an installer has the choice to follow them or not to follow them. As an inspector, I have the obligation to prove the standard has or has not been followed. Inspectors opinions are too frequently allowed to enter this equation!

    Now about choice, this can be a decision made from knowledge, i.e. the standard has been read, or through ignorance. I personally am appalled at how many installers I encounter who are not even aware the standard exists! This does make it quite difficult to follow it even if one is inclined to do so.

    Ignorance is NOT an excuse, but IMHO, a choice in its own right.
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2010
  20. Tandy Reeves

    Tandy Reeves Resting In Peace Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Peter, for an old man that is very well put.:)

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