Differences between CRI-105 and British Standards 5325 for stretching carpet

Discussion in 'Industry News, Training & Organizations' started by rusty baker, Jan 3, 2010.

  1. rusty baker

    rusty baker Well-Known Member

    CRI-105 (2002 version) offers this about stretching carpet:
    [excerpt=7.5 Power stretching]Carpet must be properly power stretched and firmly hooked onto the tackstrip in accordance with the seven-step procedure described in Figure 1. The use of a power stretcher is mandatory. Devices used as a substitute for, or an attachment to, a power stretcher may cause injury, damage carpet or subfloors, or result in an inadequate amount of stretch and are not acceptable.
    Failure to power stretch a carpet may result in:
    • Wrinkling and buckling over time
    • Localized damage to the carpet
    • Delamination
    Note: For patterned carpet, care must be exercised to ensure pattern alignment along walls. The use of a power stretcher, stay-nails, and a "dead man" may be necessary to achieve proper pattern match at seams and alignment along walls.[/excerpt]
    CRI-105 is copyrighted material from The Carpet & Rug Institute

    British Standards provide this in relation to the installation of carpet over cushion with tackless or, as they refer to it, carpet gripper:
    [excerpt= Carpet gripper method]When using the carpet gripper method, the textile floor covering should always be fitted under tension. In smaller areas a suitable tension can be achieved by use of a knee kicker. In larger areas and particularly those installations over 5 M long or wide stretching should be achieved by use of a power stretcher. Aknee kicker may also be used in conjunction with the power stretcher. In very large areas stop tacking and/or the use of a double-headed power stretcher will be needed to maintain the tension throughout the laying process. When heavy contract textile floor coverings are used, particularly in large areas, architectural carpet grippers or double strips of normal grippers fixed in parallel should be employed.

    It is essential that stretching is in both directions and the textile floor covering should not lift when it is fixed and in use under tension. It is important that the underlay abuts the edge of the carpet gripper.[/excerpt]
    BS 5325-2001 is copyrighted by The British Standards Institution
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2010
  2. Daris Mulkin

    Daris Mulkin The One and Only Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Question: Whose rules would apply to our Canadian neighbors to the north of us?

  3. rusty baker

    rusty baker Well-Known Member

    Good question. I imagine the McBrides will chime in.
  4. mcbrides

    mcbrides Canadian Installers Senior Member

    Ya just had to open that can of worms, didn't ya, Rusty?

    Of course, we Canucks, as well as Aussies, Kiwis and the Brits all follow the British Standard. Apprentices are taught how to achieve a consistent stretch with a knee kicker before they are taught how to use powerstretchers. If the apprentice does not understand the methodology in doing it manually, then all he is going to do with a power stretcher is damage the product/site. We have seen wannabe installers rip carpet and/or put holes in walls. MOST installers here stretch in with knee kickers, however, having said that, there are only a handful in our area who do it well. That is not the fault of industry standards, but the result of incomplete/ineffective training. There are many taking up the trade here that really do not understand the concept of consistent stretch (and they read if off their tack strip boxes ~ Smoothedge ~ if it's done right, all edges are smooth and flat, not puckered).

    I know that I'm going to hear a collective howl from across the lake once I post this, but I would put Dave on his kicker up against a power stretcher any day. :rolleyes:

  5. mcbrides

    mcbrides Canadian Installers Senior Member

    This from Dave:
    "If you see a fat (Canadian) carpet installer, he doesn't work very hard."
  6. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain TFP Owner/Founder Administrator

    I edited the first post in this topic to show proper excerpting and give credit and links to their respective organizations. You may purchase either standard online at those websites I linked to.

  7. rusty baker

    rusty baker Well-Known Member

    Most of us old American installers kicked it when we were younger.
  8. mcbrides

    mcbrides Canadian Installers Senior Member

    Five metres is 16'3". Most residential rooms, except for living/dining room combinations are less than that. In long rooms, it is routine to double-up the gripper (two rows, more tacks to hold the carpet), or on concrete, architectural tack strip (double width) are used. We know one installer who doubles up the gripper everywhere to maintain stretch, even in areas where he doesn't need it (we always know that Rog has been there when we see this in a retrofit).
  9. mcbrides

    mcbrides Canadian Installers Senior Member

    Many of our installer friends like to kick to stay in shape. As I told you when we discussed this last week in a PM, one of our friends has returned to installing after a year of selling, and because of the weight he has gained, he is using a power stretcher until he can get the weight off.

    Most applications here of very long pieces over pad would be commercial jobs ~ offices, hotels, etc., and most of those here are installed by the double-stick method.

  10. rusty baker

    rusty baker Well-Known Member

    Back in the old days, on big rooms, we would set a couple feet in the middle along one wall and kick straight across, basically dividing it into 2 rooms. Of course, we were dealing with jute and action back. Not the current backings.
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2010
  11. strip buster

    strip buster my way is the best way. Charter Member

    Deb there is no doubt i kick the same as Dave(kick jockey from aus),and it does keep us fit.but...since finding sites like this and fi and fci you pick things up that you didn't know about.i was taught by my father who kicked and soon enough found myself going quicker and harder than him(i would wait for a chance then go re kick his room in or tidy his join....that made him shake his head:eh:) but i found that 'for me' the mini stretcher is the ducks nuts. more srtetch than kickin and no hassle of tubes.(though i don't do domestic anymore-been over a year now-)but still believe it to be a far better method...i believe if D&D try it they wont regret it.....double head is priceless on stickdown.
  12. DJ

    DJ Charter Member

    i too did that:yesss:(when i first started) til i saw the light,when i had a job that was waay to big to kick, (15x32)it was softcrap too:eek: i was tired from hauling it in/up 2 flights of narrow stairs in the rain:yesss:
  13. kylenelson

    kylenelson You'll find me on the floor I Support TFP Senior Member

    haha, I will have to steal that one.

    As for the subject at hand, don't you feel it's easier on your body not to kick? Personnaly, I know I can do a better job with a power stretcher, and not absolutely wreck my knees. Just makes sense to me.
  14. Daris Mulkin

    Daris Mulkin The One and Only Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    I was a kicker jockey myself at one point in time but not for the last 30 years or so. I also was a crab stretcher guy to.
    Now to the point of the thread: How is it that one set of guidelines pushes that it has to be power stretched and the other can be kicked up to 16"3"? If it is a Shaw, Mohawk, or other product that the manufacturer says to power stretch does that mean now in G.B and Canada that it doesn't have to be? How would an inspector determine whose standards are right? I did an inspection a number of years ago in London, Ontario so whose standards should I have went by?
    Does manufacturers instructions still prevail? If it does then whoever is just kicking is/or should be in the wrong, RIGHT?
    Now to throw another wrench in the oil. Maybe it is products that are made in G.B. like Ax and woven products that those standards are written for.

  15. mcbrides

    mcbrides Canadian Installers Senior Member

    Some valid questions, Daris. The problem being is that even though there are those of us that insist on following guidelines, it is the retailers/dealers who sabotage us in the end by only being willing to pay for the cheapest job, and they don't care whether it is power stretched or kicked in.

    That job you inspected in London, Ont., could you discern whether it was properly stretched?

    I miss the days when installers ran retail stores. Now they will let anybody in.

    I am sorry if I have offended any dealers; our angst is directed at Canadian businesses. If many of them had their way, the whole trade would go to hell. But then, they have done substantial damage to this trade in recent years ... :mad:

    D (&D)
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2010
  16. David Hunt

    David Hunt Charter Member Senior Member Published

    Deb & Dave, you sound confused. Listen, I am on your side and the point I am going to attempt to make has less to do with this thread and more to do with our overall business philosophy. Additionally, like you, we wrestled with this very same issue until we figured out what side we were on and yes, making the decision did require us to change, but, it was definitely a change for the better. Much, much better.

    The question to be answered is this: is the quality of our work determined by the pay or is the pay determined by the quality of our work?

    Currently your trying to sit on the fence and all that will get you is busted balls. Either do the same inferior work as everybody else or do better work and and find a new clientèle that values what you have to offer. But you need to pick one or your going to drive yourselves crazy! :mad::mad::mad:


  17. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    This is the wisest advise I've heard on this site and it's really what this whole website and all of us who participate are all about. I realized quite a few years back that I can't offer anything special in the brute force or sheer production efficiency department. There's always someone bigger, stronger and CHEAPER. So where I focus on is quality and efficiency in the context of my specialty; commercial resilient work and what little carpet and wood I can do. When I walk off the job my main goal and something I take pride in is that NO ONE could have done a better job regardless of the constraints of time and price.

    That's what I'm all about on the job.
    That's the only standard I can live by.
  18. strip buster

    strip buster my way is the best way. Charter Member

    why is it assumed deb and dave are doing inferior work? has someone seen there work ? perhaps there work is as good or better than most here. never know until you see it 1st hand.
  19. kwfloors

    kwfloors Fuzz on the brain Charter Member Senior Member

    We all should know by now that manufacturers guidelines over ride any other guides out there. Yes we can tell if a carpet is power stretched or kicked or spiked or nothing. I was mentored by older installers with bad knees from kicking in the jute backed carpets of the 60's and 70's. After time they have all had knees surgery more than just once. It will catch up with you even if you don't heed anyones wisdom. I have, by using the stretcher,outlasted them all and still going.
  20. strip buster

    strip buster my way is the best way. Charter Member

    did you know that tilers get the same affliction.(over here) they have there knees done in also and in fact they are in more than carpet fitters for surgery.....that tells me it aint the kickin but kneeling on solid floors.....,domestic doesn't need a power stretcher.mini is more than enough.

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