De-lamination of glued-down engineered hardwood

Discussion in 'Hardwood and Laminates Q&A' started by monekoko3, Dec 22, 2017.

  1. Dan Schultz

    Dan Schultz Certified Wood Floor Inspector Charter Member

    Oops, looks like monekoko3 was posting while I was.....
     
  2. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    Jim, Your words got me a bit confused, I glossed over it a bit. Up top now I understand “adhesive Membrane” you mean combo, I’ll tell you now, notch recommendations for a vapor membrane for 100% coverage was always insufficient. You could pin that on an installer all day long because no one but Manufacturer wants you to use more adhesive. I sure as hell don’t care about adhesive cost but if homeowner didn’t pay and more is needed the retailer sure as hell is not throwing 200$ buckets of adhesive in for free. (Part of many reasons we no longer install, why fight it?)
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2017
  3. monekoko3

    monekoko3 Member


    Thank you for your reply Dan.
    Yes the temperature is 72 and relative humidity is 34%.
    I have one extra box and will open up soon and let’s see there is any sign of delamination.
     
  4. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    This is interesting to me the instructions for PLYWOOD OVER CONCRETE: Score 4' x 4' or 2' x 8' sheets of 3/4" exterior-grade plywood on the backside every 8" to 10" by using a circular saw and cutting one-half the thickness of the plywood; “scoring or kerfing” takes the tension out of the plywood and helps to prevent possible warping or curling. Apply adhesive/membrane to substrate and then set plywood into the wet adhesive/ membrane. Allow the adhesive/membrane to fully cure before nailing or using Bostik’s adhesive/membrane to install flooring. If nailing to the plywood, nails must not protrude through to the adhesive/membrane.

    Sorry, just a learning byproduct of reading some instructions, also helps plywood lay more flat, they didn’t say across the width in 4 foot direction is what I assume. I can apply to some future project.
     
  5. monekoko3

    monekoko3 Member

    Thank u for ur reply.
    The temp is 72 and relative humidity is 34%. I habe one box left over.. let me see if there is any sign of delamination. Will keep u posted. Thank you all!
     
  6. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain Owner/Founder Administrator

    Maybe we read different instructions. While it's true there is no water in the adhesive, that doesn't mean there is no moisture. The glue itself is wet and when you apply twice as much as recommended, all that wet glue is going to be a problem.

    I don't see the word "minimum" anywhere here in reference to the trowel size:

    bostik-vapor-lock-trowels.gif

    Perhaps the installation technology has passed me by in the 11 years since I was an active installer. But then and now, I know to read the instructions. I don't need them to tell me exactly what problems may occur if I don't follow them, just as I don't need the "Wet Paint" signs to tell me why I shouldn't touch it, or the "Don't Walk" lights to list reasons why I shouldn't walk into traffic. Sometimes you just trust the instructions.

    Finally, I hope you read what I said without thinking I said something else:

    Added emphasis to point out I said "possible" not "absolutely." No one will know for sure until it is inspected by a competent hardwood flooring inspector.
     
  7. Dan Schultz

    Dan Schultz Certified Wood Floor Inspector Charter Member

    Unless you have a fat wallet? I prefer to trust the instruction issurer's directive. Then it's on their dime.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Mark Brown

    Mark Brown On The Surface Flooring I Support TFP

    My one and only question in all of this is do you own a steam mop??
     
  9. kwfloors

    kwfloors Fuzz on the brain Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    I would not open that last box you have and let an inspector do it. For now you could tape the bad ones down so no one trips.
     
  10. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Dan, does this look like a sawn veneer to you?
     
  11. Dan Schultz

    Dan Schultz Certified Wood Floor Inspector Charter Member

    I really couldn't say from what I've seen here.

    By looking again at the thickness of the wear layer, could be.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2017
  12. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain Owner/Founder Administrator

    I was wrong about this. Even though the notches were too big, it wasn't the excess adhesive that caused this problem. I would have liked to learn this sooner. I sure hope there aren't pros here who are timid about pointing out when I'm wrong. Anyway, my apologies for the misinformation.
     
  13. Tom Potter

    Tom Potter I Support TFP

    Are you saying your human & make mistakes?:eek: lol
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    Jim, I didn’t see your post till just now when Tom replied. You get me thinking to say the least, you may see it from another angle. Case in point, my brother Pete and I were removing a wooden handicap ramp from one home inside a carport, Pete measured thru the supports of screen room and said it would fit thru. I removed frame and screen, put on rollers and we were wheeling out. I tried to angle it around the corner and it wouldn’t fit. Wife said go out straight, duh! I tried to get it back on slab instead of the grass.

    I’m not timid one bit, it’s the least thing I care about, I will say I disagree, but I just like the correct answer, doesn’t matter if I’m wrong or not I don’t care, learning is most important, it doesn’t come as easy for me as others.

    You could still be right in some other way, say if solvent,Urethane,whatever chemical weakens the adhesive layer and if excessive adhesive troweled down is just enough to cause an issue. Having no education of chemical engineering I can’t possibly formulate a conclusion.

    My wife tells me I’m right and I tell her I’m really getting tired of her saying that! Again, I like the right answer no matter where it comes from.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Craig Francis

    Craig Francis Pro Member

    When you say 2nd day do you mean after install was complete or during install? Is there radiant heating? Was moisture content of concrete slab recorded, measured? How old is slab?

    If delamination was evident during install why was install continued. I don't think the amount of adhesive is an issue, more is better than not enough, particularly if the subfloor is not flat to spec. If radiant heat was turned on for first time after floor was installed then that is a likely cause. If no radiant heat then I would say probably manufacturing defect as it happened so quickly unless there is unusually high moisture content in slab.
     
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