De-lamination of glued-down engineered hardwood

Discussion in 'Hardwood and Laminates Q&A' started by monekoko3, Dec 22, 2017.

  1. monekoko3

    monekoko3 Member

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    Hi all.

    I desperately need you guys’ expert opinion.
    To make the long story short, these de-laminations(only top layer is separating clean and curling up from its board) started since the 2nd day of glued-down installation of engineered hardwood on concrete slab. The installers are very reputable in town, licensed, bonded, insured.
    It’s been 3 weeks and now de-laminations are happening pretty much everywhere.
    Is this manufacturer’s defect? Or installation defect?
    Remind you: the floors have only one problem: de-lamination. Nothing else.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
  2. kwfloors

    kwfloors Fuzz on the brain Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    Who made the wood?
     
  3. monekoko3

    monekoko3 Member

    It’s called Villa Wood. Could you kindly share your opinion on this issue?
     
  4. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain Owner/Founder Administrator

    Is that the actual name of the hardwood? Who was the retailer?
     
  5. monekoko3

    monekoko3 Member

    Sorry. The manufacturer name is Slcc Flooring. Villa Collection.
    Yes. It’s the brand. I got the wood from a local retailer. Pls understand that i cannot disclose the name of the retailer until i figure out who is reaponsible for this.
     
  6. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    There’s no expansion joint against the Travertine, if/when Hardwood expands there’s nowhere for wood to go but up. (Partial reason) Is the expansion restricted throughout the install?

    I’ve seen this occur in some Hardwoods, we would notice when using the shear, it was minimal. I think installers would have to be at least alerted to it occurring while installing. I’d say it’s probably defective if it’s throughout, but guess it would have to be tested
     
  7. Dan Schultz

    Dan Schultz Certified Wood Floor Inspector Charter Member

    Do you have any temperature and relative humidity readings recorded?
     
  8. Steve Olson

    Steve Olson Hardwood/Laminate Guru Charter Member Senior Member

    I last had this happen on a 1400 sq ft Gluedown install over concrete. Inspector came out; faulty bond between top veneer and core, they paid for full replacement. Reputable products from a reputable dealer with solid installers was in my customers favor. Good luck.
     
  9. monekoko3

    monekoko3 Member

    Thank you for your reply.
    Yes, there are perimeter expansion gaps on all vertical walls and cabinets through out the house(1340sf) The only butt jointed area is at the fire place tiles about 1x4ft. The problem is most of delaminations are in the middle, not localized, it’s spreaded everywhere, about 40 planks are showing exactly same symptoms so far and i see more everyday. Again this started happening only 2 days after the installation is completed.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Dec 23, 2017
  10. monekoko3

    monekoko3 Member

    This is exactly what is happening to me. Separation beween top veneer and the core.
     
  11. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    Did you see what adhesive was used? I’d guess acrylic which has water in it, probably just enough to cause separation even though it shouldn’t have mattered.
     
  12. monekoko3

    monekoko3 Member

    Yes Bostik’s Vapor/lock with 1/2” V-notch trowler. The installer applied a lot of glue.
     
  13. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    Ouch, I have complained about this issue, nothing left but Manufacturer issue. Dan Schultz described start/stopping runs going through the manufacturing process, not sure how a whole run could be compromised. I personally would like to see adhesive holding layers together.

    If you could answer Dans questions about your ambient temp/humidity and within parameter I’d say it’s a closed case, Manufacturer Defect. Him or Elmer are inspectors so their opinion is almost solid without being on site.
     
  14. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain Owner/Founder Administrator

    Too much glue. Your material is only 9/16" thick, which means the trowel notch should have been no more than a ¼x¼" V-notch trowel, if used as an adhesive membrane, or a ¼x¼x¼" square notched trowel for use as adhesive only (will not provide reduction of moisture vapor emissions). It's possible your installer's failure to follow the adhesive's instructions has caused this problem.
     
  15. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    I disagree, for moisture vapor reduction a V notch trowel I believe covers slab better than the square notch trowels, I dislike all square notch as they usually cause valleys and ridges, so I don’t like v notch either, I think the top dries quick/skins over fast. That’s my personal issue I suppose, but directions state 100% coverage, that’s extremely unlikely with smaller notches and usually the 1/2” V wears quickly against concrete bringing it to the 15/32” recommendation( maybe not for specific wood product not sure)

    I don’t see how slightly more adhesive under a rigid hardwood causes delam. It’s a Urethane, water is not in ingredients as the vehicle for spreading.

    Removal of urethane usually requires a ride on scraper.
     
  16. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain Owner/Founder Administrator

    Did you read my post or the adhesive instructions? Only the V-notch can offer moisture vapor protection as well as adhesive and, as I stated, the square notch is for adhesive only use. I got that information from the Bostik instructions. I also got the information about notch sizes from those instructions. The half-inch V-notch used on this job was too much adhesive. The moisture from all that glue had to evaporate and I think it got to the hardwood and caused it to delaminate. Look at some of the photos again and you will see some curling going on too, which would indicate moisture.
     
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  17. monekoko3

    monekoko3 Member


    I just read Bostik’s Vapor/Lock instructions. There is no moisture in the glue. 100% eurethane based and gets cured with moisture from the air. Therefore your comment: “moisture from glue” can cause the delamination doesn’t make sense to me. Also it says MINIMUM troweler size is 1/4x1/4 V-notch, not maximum.
    It doesn’t say anything about higher trowler size will cause any problem.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2017
  18. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

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    I would like to see what is happening under the veneer in these two pics. If the fiber is tearing, then we could assume that extra moisture is causing the veneer to warp/cup and tear itself from the core material. If there is no fiber tearing it is likely that either the adhesive was improperly applied or dried before the adhesion could take place. If I were commissioned to do the inspection I would pull the veneer to see what was going on. Anything less is just a guess.
     
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  19. monekoko3

    monekoko3 Member

    Thank you. I think your method will definitely do. The problem is i am having 20 guests for this Christmas And just cannot take it up now. Will keep you guys posted after. Thank you all so much for throwing the ideas!! Merry Christmas!
     
  20. Dan Schultz

    Dan Schultz Certified Wood Floor Inspector Charter Member

    Elmer, you and I probably have a different view of fibers tearing than other folks. The OP did state, "only top layer is separating clean and curling up from its board", but we haven't seen any pictures to indicate that.

    Still curious about the temperature and relative humidity in the room(s).

    Is there any left over product? If so, can you find similar delamination along the edges of uninstalled boards?
     
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