1. Nate Hall

    Nate Hall Types With toes I Support TFP Senior Member Published

    OH BOY, HERE WE GO AGAIN! The old pay vs quality argument. Is anyone else a little tired of that yet?
  2. Al Gladden

    Al Gladden stretcherman Charter Member

    2 bucks a yard?...thats embarrassing...my helpers make more than that...
  3. so for 2 a yard it is acceptable to kick it? I disagree. I will leave with an anology. my brain computes what you just said to equate to this. . . for a 2 breakfast special at the diner its ok if the eggs are raw but for 5 it is not ok.

    Personally I disagree with this logic, Further more if it were a diner and you thought it was ok and worked for me I would fire you. Of course you work for you I work for me so crisis averted.
  4. Al Gladden

    Al Gladden stretcherman Charter Member

    i powerstretch everything..im saying your cheap...pay your help better..by the time your installer buys supplies,gas and pays helper.. he would make more flipping burgers...and you dont have to worry about firing me, i dont work that cheap
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2011
  5. Al,

    would you eat the eggs yes or no. And I thank you on the kind words of my frugality. Although I think you may jump to conclusions on the whole story I appreciate your kindness just the same.
  6. Mike Sliwinski

    Mike Sliwinski The Doctor Is In I Support TFP Senior Member

    Interesting equating Country ! We all have our own unique perspectives, that's what makes life and this site so interesting.

    This unbreakable stand that's being communicated to the Subs is Amazing. Even @ below average rates, the Power Stretching stand remains and I respect that. I may actually need to incorporate that.

    I offered my sub more per yard a year ago, but the Kicker Jockey still Kicks. (No dis-respect intended) The issue, IMO is really more about Good Installers with Bad Habits and How to encourage them to change. It may be an UN-reachable goal, I hope not.

    This open discussion is helping me be more in tuned with the topic. Maybe I need to ask him what are his fears about changing. Then address each fear with a calming and empowering response. Maybe one response will be powerful enough to help over-come his Fear and Panic. Could it be this fear along with the bad habit are over-powering his common sense and the benefits of the Tool ?

  7. I ramble so heres the quick reply

    I disagree with paying more and getting more. You can get a lot farther by being involved and at least pretending you give a sweet one about how your installer feels.

    Here is the long reply

    I see no point in kicking the carpet. This being said I never made it as an installer, just sales I lack work ethic. And I respect the view point of me being cheap, I just ask what is acceptable? what is sellable?, where do the rights to work conflict with the right to earn a decent living. I agree apartment work does not pay, However if you want to do it the rate that I am able to get is low so the labor is low. I could pay my regular rate which is 4 dollars a yard and not do apartment work or lose 50 cents a sq yd. I opt to ask if my installer wants to do the work and if he does it pays 2 a sq yd. Now if my installer says hey I will send my helpers to do the work for $2 sq yd I wont be on the job but it will be done properly I understand that.

    Kicking carpet in is not good for the installer nor the store nor the customer. The problem with power stretching carpet is who sees the difference? if an installer can get in and out of a house 2 hours earlier by kicking the carpet instead of power stretching it is in the immediate interest of everybody to kick it in. Years down the road you have restretch/warranty issues and labor pains in your back and knees.

    Your subcontractor works for himself, either you have to go to salary crews or try and work with your subcontractor. In my opinion I would actually rather have an installer who can get a long with the consumer than one who does perfect work, if you are doing strictly residential. On commercial work you can not get away with that as easily.

    This being said on different work you pay differently. I am sure Dobby pays much differently than I do when he is putting in a woven piece of wool than I do for a cheap replacement carpet to sell a house He has to be around 7-8 bucks a yard ( i have no idea dont do that type of work) the difference my guys go in 4 guys lay 200 yds in a day make $800 Dobby may go lay 50 yards work all day long come back the next to finish. If you are doing apartment work you may get away with sending helpers if you have a pattern piece or a woven piece of carpet you may want to send somebody who isnt going to work at a blinding speed.

    What I think the industry has to do is one of two things go strictly cash and carry or have management on the payroll that does nothing but go around and make sure the installs are being done properly. This creates a problem for little guys who do not have time and money to do so. Just my opinion.

    Correct me if I am wrong but your carpet is not under warranty if it is kicked so your liablity is too great to install unless its done correctly. So what do you do mike? Ask somebody with the answer! that man is not named Kevin Middleton therefore its not me.
  8. Nate Hall

    Nate Hall Types With toes I Support TFP Senior Member Published

    mike, I like what you say about helping a man face his fears. If it helps, you can tell him that there is at least one installer who stretches everything. (even cheap constuction grade cheese cloth disguised as carpet) I was trained to stretch and I do, so over time, I became faster and faster! Last summer I had an apt. building (new construction) and I did all three floors in 2 months. The record I set on that job was 3 units in one day (158 sq. yd.s)
    I was getting an hourly wage but I have a strong work ethic and a weak mind!
    At $2.00/yd that does not cover expences but at $3.00 it does. Could C.F.D. split the diff. and allow everyone to make a buck? I don't know but this discussion has been done to death, and I love a good arguement as much as I believe there is a way to make a living in flooring with out cheating anyone out of there profits. I guess it boils down to a choice. Do you value quality or profitability more? I'll tell you mine if you tell me yours.
  9. Mike Sliwinski

    Mike Sliwinski The Doctor Is In I Support TFP Senior Member

    Mike is straying from the topic into the Sub-topic ;)

    We all have Fears ! :eek: and wouldn't life be grand if we could change those fears to love. How about every person that reads this today, go into tomorrow with a pretend courage. No matter what happens this Courage will allow you to respond to the challenge rather than giving into reactive panic.

    It's hard to do, because we are mostly a reactive society. Try it ! even if you mess up, just try again and so on and so forth. Hopefully creating a healthy Habit, :D Sorry about that ! I must be sleep deprived / extra sensitive.

    Back to Main Topic:

    I Value Quality over profitability because with-out quality you have no Value.
    The problem is that my Sub also Values Quality but at the expense of his body ! Due to what I believe is Fear of change and A learned Habit. Find the Fear and break the habit.

  10. Mike Sliwinski

    Mike Sliwinski The Doctor Is In I Support TFP Senior Member

    :confused: Sorry, I'm tired and fearing over my interpratation of the reply.
    Maybe tommarow with my pretend courage will I be less confused. ;) But if you would like to re-visit the reply and be more directive, I would be appreciative................ I do however have one reply :

    Work ethic comes in all shapes and sizes and Mr. Country Flooring Direct / Kevin's work ethic is his un-breakable deturmination to hirer
    subs who power stretch :bow:
  11. stullis

    stullis Charter Member Senior Member

    Salespeople like to think they are getting A+ quality work and they are only paying for C- quality. Customers like to think they are getting a "deal" and expect top of the line carpet while buying .50/ ft carpet.

    Guess what guys? You are deluding yourselves. :(

    If you want control of the installation process then hire employees and not subs.
    Heck pay them by the hour and you as salespeople will soon learn the value of these standards that you wish to impose when you underbid the jobs. :cool:
  12. Mike Sliwinski

    Mike Sliwinski The Doctor Is In I Support TFP Senior Member

    Now I'm back where I started from post # 1 :( :( Thanks for the reality check. I guess the discussion is over and its time for Action !
    and to deliver the message.

  13. stullis

    stullis Charter Member Senior Member

    Mike, will you take the time to train or get training for your sub who kicks?

    The use of a powerstretcher does NOT guarantee a wrinkle free installation and with improper use, may actually cause more wrinkles.

    As a subcontractor, the installer is free to use any method he wishes, if there are problems then you need to require him to warrantee his work the same as the customer will require you to warrantee the job you sold them.

    The better the quality of the installation, the more time it takes to do the install and the cost goes up. Time is money especially in the labor field. :)

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