CFI - CRI What do they teach about seaming

Discussion in 'Industry News, Training & Organizations' started by inyourface, May 8, 2006.

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  1. inyourface

    inyourface Guest

    From all the times I have sealed the edges of a seam, I've never heard anyone on how to solve this problem, not even CFI OR CRI. Can anyone here enlighten us?

    Take any piece of carpet and seal the edges of that carpet. Then seam that carpet together and just watch as the glue on the sealed edges is reaheated by the iron and the edges drag on the neck of the iron and pull at least some of the fibers a little further down below the nap surface. I have seen it do this time and again, so I was wondering how our industry solved this little problem.

    Of course many say our seams are supposed to show, like the seams in our clothes.

    hahahahaha, I just saw the word irregular under my moniker. hehe, ok, who's playin with the nobs.
  2. Al Gladden

    Al Gladden stretcherman Charter Member

    i thermoseal all my berbers, when it comes to plush i do not thermoseal, i use latex, that will solve pulling i guess you was talking about plush carpet..
  3. Nick Arrera

    Nick Arrera Resting In Peace

    i use os 22 never had a problem .. once i had a seam loosing fibers , a reel expensive cpt , the inspector came out , put the gun on the seam , and said i dident use enough seam sealer
    there was a lot of spots with no latex .. i sent it for a roll tuff pull test and it failed .. thats when i found out os dosent show up under the ultra light ..
  4. Lo Down

    Lo Down Old as dirt member Charter Member Senior Member

    Possibly you are applying too much glue? Never really had that problem..... but have had a problem with some of Mohawh/Karastans 'tarp' like backing..... not sure what it's called, but if you apply too much pressure, its possible to get the glue to ooze up into the seam when you press the edges in.
    Head seams in berber I have used latex........ and then thermo, if the latex has a chance to dry for quite a while. I had a doorway seam that was thermo'd only, and the heat allowed the sealed loops to let loose as the seamer moved along.... latex will lock them in so the heat cannot have any effect on them.
  5. inyourface

    inyourface Guest

    No consistancy

    Well, the industry advocates using seam sealer on all carpet, so if there happens to be a failure, isn't it on you or whatever installer?

    I worked with a super expensive berber the other day and as I was working the seam, I sealed all the edges and I had pull-downs in the seam and I tried to cover by working the edges in tighter , but no luck, so I had to re-do the entire patch.

    Now with some berber you can seal, but with some, you can't, so as with plush, if hard, fast rules apply, but each roll of carpet is different according to the stiffness or flexibility of the yarn, who do you think will pay for any problems arising either way?

    By the way, laytex turns soft again under the heat and causes the same problems.
  6. inyourface

    inyourface Guest

    So are you saying you never had a problem with the sealer re-melting around the neck of the hot iron and creating pull-downs? Do you seal all edges and if someonme picked out say 15 different carpets and had you seal all the edges, that not one would have a problem? Would you bet onm that, say 1,000 dollars of your own money?

    Do you work with a lot of satins? Do you work with a lot of very low profile very expensive carpets?

    How many installers have challenged our industry and it's policy makers to prove they can do it?

    Will they bet say 1,000 or even 10,000 of their own money and can I pick the carpets? :coffee:
  7. inyourface

    inyourface Guest

    Can you tell us exactly how much sealer to apply into all those holes and rough edges at the edges of the carpet that never cuts cleanly? (Well, maybe one or two carpets cut kinda clean, but they would be the hot melt backings.)

    Can you tell us if that is the only Karastan to have this problem? I've worked with Karastan longer than most on these boards. Can you tell us what if anything the Karastans of the early 70's experienced, if anything and how the installers solved that problem, if any?

    Depending on the heat of the iron, the sealer can and will turn loose and it will create pull-downs for at least some guys, as I have personally experienced, especially with high end goods, in many cases. If your iron is not hot enough, it makes for a colder seam especially in berber, when heat is needed.

    Heat will re-melt laytex and cause pull-downs, as I have used several different sealers. I hate sealers personally, but as some edges are really a pain, sometimes I try anyway. Once in a while it works and sometimes it doesn't.

    What would be interresting is if the installers challenged this industry one year to have all it's policy makers get tested by having the installers bring all the carpets they have hgad problems with thru that year and see what happens when the so called policy makers have to seal and put all those glued edges together, especially if they have to do 4 square inserts in carpet.

    You will then see if they deserve to lead this industry, but of course, I doubt they would ever submit to such.
  8. inyourface

    inyourface Guest

    Moderator or board owner

    By the way, if this board wants to give names to the installers here, they might want to rethink such.

    Irregular can be not at all and I don't like people giving me titles. Bite me!
  9. Daniel Wachtel

    Daniel Wachtel Charter Member

    Hi In Your Face. Lighten up on the badgering of the other members. These forums are viewable by the public also.

    Now on with the subject. I am glad to see you have interest in helping other installers and bettering your own skills.

    Let's begin with the CRI (carpet and rug institute). The CRI is a group of professionals from manufacturers to retailers and even installers. The CRI sets the guidelines and MINIMUM standards. The CR-105 states that all seams must be sealed. Thats all. The CRI is not a training institution.

    Now on to the CFI. The CFI does certify sort and catalogue installers by skill level. The CFI also has CFI training. It is pretty entry level stuff. Stretching, trimming, and stair upholstery, carpet idenification, a basic primer on moisture and ph testing, and yes, even seam sealing. To attend a CFI training you must have two years experience. Hopefully in that two years of experience someome along the way teaches one how to apply seam sealer. If not a trainer or certifier will show them. It is easier to show someone, hands on, than to explain verbally.

    There are many difficulties that some installers face with seam sealing. With latex one of the key factors is the ammount of latex applied. The other is drying time. The iron should feel as if ir is pulling smoothly, if you can feel the wefts of the backing dragging there's either not enough latex (the voids on the wefts or warps, as the case may be, should be filled by the latex, and not on the back side of the carpet) or, the latex is still wet.

    The same holds true for thermo sealing, fill the voids without oversaturating the carpet.

    I hope this helps.
  10. Al Gladden

    Al Gladden stretcherman Charter Member

    daniel, are you the one running this place?
  11. inyourface

    inyourface Guest

    Show me where I badgered anyone on this thread and then, tell whoever started this board that if he or you want to give me the name of irregular or any other name, that's your choice, but as far as I'm concerned, you can shove it!

    Depending on how this board responds to it's own name calling, I might answer the rest.
  12. Daniel Wachtel

    Daniel Wachtel Charter Member

    I'm just helping out the administrator, since I'm familiar with the software and I needed another flooring activity.:dance:
  13. Daniel Wachtel

    Daniel Wachtel Charter Member


    At the top of the page click on user CP and go to edit profile, you can change your title there.
  14. inyourface

    inyourface Guest

    Now for the next thing. You said this,--Hi In Your Face. Lighten up on the badgering of the other members.

    Show this board where I badgered anyone on this thread or anywhere on this board. If your going to accuse me of something, at least prove it.
  15. Daniel Wachtel

    Daniel Wachtel Charter Member

    Your reply to Lo Down.

    InYourFace, I'm not here to argue with you, just trying to keep the site pleasant.

    We have all applied seam sealer, some more than others, it's pretty basic. It is not rocket surgery.

    My apologies if I stepped on your toes,
  16. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain TFP Owner/Founder Administrator

    Excellent topic you started inyourface. Let me address a couple of the last issues you brought up.
    Maybe it wasn't quite badgering but it did border on antagonistic. Like so:
    I'm sure you just got caught up in the moment and didn't mean to be quite so aggressive. These are important issues but I don't think we will be able to solve every industry problem very easy.

    I do want to mention that we do not advocate gambling here so no betting. Gambling can be a serious problem for many people and we want to help flooring installers better themselves not catch the gambling bug. ;)

    As much as many of would like and I'm sure we would enjoy, we just can't expect any segment of the industry to band together to challenge manufacturers or retailers or any other group over issues that have festered for many decades. Neither you or I will probably see the day that we wake up and go off to trouble free installations.

    But I hope we can develop a voice here in out little part of the internet that might be heard in places that count. Your discussion of this topic is important in that effort but we can't let it get to the point that it becomes a struggle. Try to temper yourself. :D

    Please don't get angry over something you don't understand. Perhaps I should have explained in a post in the forum support area about "titles". By default everyone gets a title based on the number of posts they make. As a brand new member the title is "Brand New Member". Once you get 10 posts your title is "Irregular". When you get to 30 posts your title is "Member" (I know, boring). At 100 posts you get the title "Regular" and then it's a long time to 1000 posts and the title "Old Timer". But if you look in the available settings of your profile and options you will see there are many things you can do including make your own custom title.

    I want you to enjoy it here and have many options and features that will encourage you to come back on a regular (or Irregular) basis. Everyone here wants a good forum that will give them an opportunity to have civil discussions with each other to learn and to have fun. I know you can help in that regard because I have seen you bring up some very interesting topics. But I do not want them to deteriorate and I need your help with that just as I need everyone elses. We must all work together this way or this board will fail.

    If this hasn't answered all your concerns please let me know before you jump to any conclusions. We all start off brand new here and everyone is going to be treated equally and fairly as long as they do the same for us.

    Thank you for your participation.
  17. inyourface

    inyourface Guest

    Aggressive? yes, I can be. I look for proof, not just some guy saying you have to do it this way or that way, because that's when people that don't have to prove anything, mess things up totally.

    As to this irregular, I can see it was in part my fault and for that, I apologize. Since this has happened, I guess all that read this thread will know.

    Thanks for the explanation and I'll try not to be so aggressive.

    I'll answer Daniels post now.
  18. inyourface

    inyourface Guest

    To your part about CRI, from all we on the floor see, not one roll of carpet is made the same when it comes to the amount of fillers within the primary and secondary, which means, no two carpets will stretch alike, so how can any common sensed installer believe that there can be any common ground for setting stretching guidelines?

    Next, if they are setting the guidelines, then they have no right to set anything, especially when they never stand behind the things they write. You can't take these things to court and hope to win anything, when they can't prove they can even regulate the flow of fillers so installers can have some consistancy in the stretch.

    All an installers has to do is take a piece of carpet where the backing is mottled with darker areas and explain the stretch to the judge and detail how the fillers create different rates of stretch for the areas that are mottled and different for areas with little or no fillers.

    You say CFI certifies to entry level and by your words, basic stuff, so please, tell us all what they are doing when they certify MASTER INSTALLERS, especially when they have never seen them install in the field? I'd say that's pretty much lying to the general public.
  19. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain TFP Owner/Founder Administrator

    But this is the internet and providing proof is next to impossible. Please don't expect anyone to be able to do that online to your satisfaction. They never have for me either.

    By the way you can answer and quote as many people as you want in a single post. Just use the editor features and do some copy and paste for your quotes. It's harder to read the thread when the same person makes several posts in a row to different people.

    Thanks again.
  20. inyourface

    inyourface Guest

    I disagree that one should respond to several peopl;e on the same thread. I think one should take the time to answer each person, as it shows respect, at least from the way I see things AND, it seperates things out for everyone, instead of confusing things, but that's just how I see things.

    If it's because it will take up too much board space, please let me know and I will comply.
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