Are Certifications Helping or Hurting

Discussion in 'Industry News, Training & Organizations' started by Mike Sahli, Sep 3, 2010.

  1. Mike Sahli

    Mike Sahli Pro Member

    Education and installer training is a great thing and I hope organizations like CFI continue to offer education programs.

    I wonder how many installers are benefiting from having the extra knowledge that they get from classes that CFI and others offer.

    I know I get extra work by having the tools and knowledge to get the job done but I don't seem to be making extra money. I do a crazy amount of free work because the person who sold the job didn't understand the amount of work necessary to get the site ready for install and didn't allow enough money to cover the additional work.

    Doing quality work and extras for little or nothing does keep us busier than others but thats not why I bought the better tools and got the extra education. Is just staying busy enough.

    Most shops and contractors seem to have the attitude that we should just be happy we have a job.

    Is getting better educated and buying better tools getting you more money .
  2. polestretch

    polestretch Senior Member

    I asked my boss if I got certified would I get a raise? The answer:(:(:(
  3. nimrod

    nimrod Pro Member

    in the last 26+ yrs you have been installing how many times has a customer asked if u were certified?

    If after 26+ yrs of installing you were to go and take your test and pay money to get certified do you think you will be able to work FASTER and BETTER than what you do right now?:confused:
  4. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    He doesn't want to post it here but he tells us you ARE certified.

    Certified crazy!!!:eek::eek::dance:
  5. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    In all seriousness. :eek:

    This is the classic discussion between installer and store owner. In all truthfulness I have never gotten an answer to this, nor do I know the answer.

    The installer feels if he is certified he should be paid more, the retailer says "Why?"
  6. Barry Carlton

    Barry Carlton I Support TFP Senior Member Published

    My recent experience has been that the more seminars and certs. get the less they work me. For the perceived reasons above, that I would want more money.

    But I will continue my education to the best of my ability.
  7. nimrod

    nimrod Pro Member

    yes he is my mind. he could take the test and pass. does that piece of paper make him a better installer than he was yesterday? I would much rather have him installing for me than a guy who has installed for 5 yrs but has that piece of paper saying he is certified. :cool:
  8. nimrod

    nimrod Pro Member

    was wondering if this discussion could be moved to another topic or forum to get more input.would like to hear some other store owners and installers opinions....
  9. Barry Carlton

    Barry Carlton I Support TFP Senior Member Published

    Done...was in the process when you asked.
  10. Chris Mha

    Chris Mha Charter Member Senior Member

    Why finish high school? Why go to college? It's just more education. I realize that a high school diploma and a college degree can earn you more money but why stop the education there.

    I install for a Carpet One dealer who believes the more education the better. I have an upcoming Forbo repair. He had to purches the material through a third party because I am not certified. I told him that I have always wanted to go to Forbo. He offered to pay for it.

    I used to have the attitude that why should I become certified if the retailer don't care and are not going to pay me more. I change that attitude about 15 years ago. I decided that I was going to do it for myself regardless of what anyone else thought.

    A few years ago I attended the Bridges conference in Tulsa. I met Daris, Roland, and a few other CFI Masters and if I learned one this from them it was Pride. I try to do as many seminars as I can afford. Just for me and that makes me proud of myself. I try to be better that the next guy but I am also willing to pass along that knowledge to the open minded installers.
  11. Mike Sahli

    Mike Sahli Pro Member

    It seems that all I get now days is hack wages for top quality work. The job gets sold at the lowest possible labor rate just so the shop can get the bid and then the shop hopes the new guys or the hacks they know will work for cheap can pull it off. We don't get the call a lot of times until the job is really screwed up. Then its " I'll make it up to you on the next one " which of course never happens.

    I don't totally blame the shops, there competitors are bidding the same way to get the job. Bid it with qualified installers and the higher rates they want and you don't get the job.

    I do stay busy, but the more qualified I get the less we get the job first because they know we cost more.

    Thats just what I run into and I'm curious if its just me or most of you.
  12. Mike Sahli

    Mike Sahli Pro Member

    So the question is are you making more money by being getter educated, I agree with education and I'm always learning new things and passing them along to others but I don't seem to be making more than I did before.
  13. Barry Carlton

    Barry Carlton I Support TFP Senior Member Published

    You pretty much nailed my experiences at this time.
  14. hookknife

    hookknife Hard Surface Installer Charter Member Senior Member

    I have never attended a seminar or school where I didn't learn something, sometimes from the most unexpected sources. I have had a few jobs given to me because of a cert, but not many. What I have gotten, is a better understanding of the products I work with which in turn has helped in installation time and quality of these same products. I have also made some very good friendships with some of the people I have attended these schools with. As far as more money????? in the long run I would say Yes, the foremost reason is in many cases your certification will be the deciding factor especially if for example a project has spec'd say a Forbo Master Mechanic or something of the like. Training is the key, All of the Mechanics I have worked with in my time doing this that I would consider Good have had Formal training, most of them Union Training other self promoted training from sources like Armstrong to name just one. Remember 20 years doing it wrong doesn't make it right.
  15. Mike Sahli

    Mike Sahli Pro Member

    I think CFI and others are achieving what they set out to do and thats help create better installers, but in most cases install rates are set by the market and being better will get you the job over a less qualified installer but not necessarily a higher install rate, at least thats what I see most often around the parts of the country I get to.
  16. hookknife

    hookknife Hard Surface Installer Charter Member Senior Member

    Yea I agree with you the Market does dictate our prices. I guess If I am working and the other guy isn't because of lack of training then I have made more money right??? J/K Mike:D
  17. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    That's essentially how the union journeyman qualification works and our schools and programs are pretty rigorous, well designed and fairly well funded. But like you say, in the end the "journeyman" card is a piece of paper and I see quite a few guys who amaze me at either how SLOW or how poorly they work.

    It's never going to be about a piece of paper or a school. Shop owners and customers have the last word.
  18. hookknife

    hookknife Hard Surface Installer Charter Member Senior Member

    I agree with this, but lets look at a another point of view. Suppose two guys apply for the same position, both tell you they are good, both have good recommendations, But one also can show either union or specific product training dating him back many years showing a history of training and advancement albeit only on paper, who will you likely go with?
  19. Mike Sahli

    Mike Sahli Pro Member

    That is so true Hook, right now something is better than nothing.:(

    Maybe when the economy picks up the install rates for better installers will to.
  20. Mike Sahli

    Mike Sahli Pro Member

    If they will work for the same price I would always take the better qualified installer.

    What if one guy wants more than the other ?

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