Adura Max Problem

Discussion in 'Vinyl Flooring Q&A' started by Miriam Purcell, Oct 24, 2017.

  1. Miriam Purcell

    Miriam Purcell New Member

    I had Adura Max by Mannington installed 2.5 weeks ago as part of a remodel of my first floor. I researched this product extensively and spoke with a company that sells large quantities of this product. I informed the company I purchased it from that I would be installing the product over a concrete slab that was in mint condition. I removed carpet and ceramic tile before the installation so concrete slab was inspected thoroughly. My installer and I spoke with the owner of the company where I purchased the product to ask about using an underlayment. He assured us that Mannington says not to use underlayment since the product has a rubber backing with the last layer being a quiet step underlayment attached thus avoiding the need for an installed underlayment. So my installer followed this recommendation and installed the Adura Max over the concrete. Yesterday, October 23, I noticed in the doorway entering the kitchen from the foyer and from the kitchen into the living room the Adura max was moving up and down. Upon further investigation by my installer, we have found the entire 787 sq ft is moving up and down in multiple places. My installer is contacting Mannington and the company we purchased from today. Have you had any reports about this same issue? And do you have any input on using an underlayment with Adura Max product?
     
  2. SteveG

    SteveG Pro Member

    Was the floor flat within the manufacturer's tolerances? It could moving up and down because there are voids underneath it.

    What kind of expansion gap was left, and were transitions used at appropriate breaks? Is the floor pinned somewhere? Under cabinetry or a nail through the baseboards perhaps? It could be peaking thereby creating a void.
     
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  3. Miriam Purcell

    Miriam Purcell New Member

    Steve,
    The floor is a cement slab and was in excellent shape. It had been carpeted. It was clean and level. Tile in kitchen was removed and floor cleaned as well. The expansion gap is .5 inch all around. All of the base board is installed but not the shoe. So I don't think that is the issue. My contractor has installed multiple brands of vinyl flooring on several of his projects including his own home over the past few years and has never seen this before. Waiting for response from Mannington.
     
  4. Jim McClain

    Jim McClain Owner/Founder Administrator

    How was level determined? Was a long, straightedge used to check the rise and fall of the concrete slab? The standard is 3/16" in 10'. Was there no visible gap greater than that under the straightedge when placed at various locations around the room? In the 35 years I did flooring installations, I never found a concrete slab that was that flat everywhere.

    Not every LVT/P is the same. Did he actually read and follow the instructions? Or did he think that material was the same as all the rest and just start laying? Was he aware of the 3/16" flatness standard? Did he use any cement based compound to raise the level of some spots or a grinder to lower the level of others? Did he provide for the expansion gap at ALL vertical obstructions, including any pipes or other obstacles? Did he undercut door trims and casings so the LVT/P could slip under them, but still have the required expansion gap? Did he conduct any kind of moisture check of the slab to see if it was good? You can have a moisture vapor problem even when the slab looks dry.

    Mannington will want to know the answer to these things and more.
     
  5. Miriam Purcell

    Miriam Purcell New Member

    Yes to all of the above. He spoke with both the manager of the company we purchased the flooring from as well as Mannington in NJ to make sure he had all info about install. He questioned the absence of an underlayment so he verified he didn't need to install one before laying the flooring. No pipes or obstacles except the room walls and he allowed sufficient gap allowance. He is installing all new doors, casings and trim as part of the remodel so those were installed after the flooring. Thank you for your input.
     
  6. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    Was the supply plank acclimated 48 hours prior to installation?
     
  7. Mark Brown

    Mark Brown On The Surface Flooring I Support TFP

    doors and casing was installed after a floating floor. Any chace they butt down hard on the floor and are pinching it ?? This could cause what you are describing.
     
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  8. Steve Olson

    Steve Olson Hardwood/Laminate Guru Charter Member Senior Member

    Just as reference, Mannington states in the spec sheet:
    Also, is the expansion .5" from the existing base, or after the base was installed; Mannington only calls for .25"
    Also, as I have done door trim replacements on a number of projects over the years, it's hard for me to imagine door trim being installed so tight, it could cause what's described.
    I'm guessing either the floor was not as flat as it should of been or there are some extremes temp differentials in play.
     
  9. Mark Brown

    Mark Brown On The Surface Flooring I Support TFP

    I am inclined to agree with you on that. The only real thing I can imagine is frames being lodged on the floor. However in the absence of any other logical explanation, I am reaching. I can't help but assume if some one tells me their floor is flat, they mean it. Even if during my whole career I have been given information to the contrary :)
     
  10. kwfloors

    kwfloors Fuzz on the brain Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    It probably is pinched or else there is water under there.
     
  11. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    You really think to accept someone’s description of a concrete slab in “mint condition”? No such term in concrete.
     
  12. Mark Brown

    Mark Brown On The Surface Flooring I Support TFP

    Mike man, this is gospel :)
    However this one time, just trying to troubleshoot, I'm gonna have to.
     
  13. Chris 45

    Chris 45 Director of P.R. on some deserted island. I Support TFP

    We don’t know if transitions were used or eliminated and doorjambs set too tight on a floating floor is a real possibility for causing problems. I always tell my customers to have their doors set prior to me showing up and I will undercut the jambs.
     
  14. Commercial Floor Rep

    Commercial Floor Rep I Support TFP Published

    A floating floor with a locking mechanism will only handle so much up and down movement. The product already has an attached sound deadening cushion on it. Adding additional underlayment will allow for too much movement that will allow the locking system to either become disconnected or over time cause the locking system to break.

    I'm a bit concerned if the installer wanted to use additional underlayment on a "mint condition" slab. To me, this suggests he was seeking an easy way out of making sure the floor was flat by using the additional underlayment to hide or fill in subfloor imperfections that he didn't want to deal with correctly. I would be very interested as to whether that floor meets the flatness requirement and how the installer checked it. The product is a "rigid core" product. That means if the subfloor isn't flat it's going to bridge subfloor imperfections.
     
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  15. Incognito

    Incognito No more Mr. Nice Guy! I Support TFP Senior Member

    "mint condition"........my ass.
     
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  16. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    Reminds me of a job guy said everything was fine, he did all the prep, just to lay vinyl tile. We obliged! He started asking questions half way through. It’ll be ok!
     
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  17. Mark Brown

    Mark Brown On The Surface Flooring I Support TFP

    "No Big Deal" - it is our hilarious new mantra. Same thing Mike, I tell a GC his floor is all out of whack, give him an honest to God bottom of the barrel let's just move forward with the project price to fix it. Too high, him and his guys will do it. OK.... well, no big deal. Flooring fails and I refuse to do a damn thing about it. No big deal right. Cheque cashed and money gone :)
     
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  18. Elmer Fudd

    Elmer Fudd Administwative Asst. Charter Member I Support TFP Senior Member

    To you and I it is "No Big Deal", but somebodies grandma saved for several years to have a new floor. The least we can do is install it right! I am not sayin I never cut a corner or three, but when I did I had a hard time sleeping. Maybe just my old weak mind thinking back!!
     
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  19. Mike Antonetti

    Mike Antonetti I Support TFP Senior Member

    My job was a commercial truck/Jeep/accessories shop, guy from Jersey bought a foreclosed building. There were some divots, nothing out of others ordinary. I went back months later to see it settled in.
     
  20. Mark Brown

    Mark Brown On The Surface Flooring I Support TFP

    To me it was a HUGE deal. I walked on the original install, told everyone to run for the hills. Then I offered to level the whole place for cost of material and my apprentices wages because to me, end user is the reason I do this job. Thing is no one was listening, the GC on the remodel just kept saying no big deal, no big deal and in the end I got roped into doing it after his "repair"
    joking about it now IS how I sleep at night because it was a perfect storm of shit that led to this poor lady having a floor she wasn't satisfied with.

    ...it's a long story, but that is the jist of it. Just now when generals tell us stupid things all we say is "no big deal"
     
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